To Bee or Not to Bee - Perspective of a Redfish
Let's Go Bananas!
We are often told by other Steemians to stay away from Trending. Why? Why make a Trending page if we are advised by many users on this platform to stay away from the toxic vibes there? Are the authors that make it to Trending the definition of success? Not everything on Trending is a sore eye, but let’s not disillusion ourselves with the reality of this platform. Many posts on there wouldn’t qualify as quality as deemed by this user. Quality is subjective so you may deem the content there as well-worthy of being rewarded.
We are also told by other Steemians to engage with others, join communities, and grow organically.
To bee or not to bee.
Wherefore art thou my friendly whale?
What price does one have to pay for success here?
There are communities sprouting abundantly on here, just like my beautiful dandelion weed. Some communities are public and some are by invitation only. One soon realizes that many of them are pay-to-play for community support. There are some requirement to being part of many communities (upvote requirements, follow a curation trail, exclusive membership club, etc.) and the support received is not always freely given. I am happy to say that I never felt my involvement in any of my associated communities as one being a pay-to-play membership club. Any support given or received was freely done by all parties.
Realistic Expectations
The engagement and commitment required to be a member of some communities is unrealistic for an average user like myself who doesn’t have the time or energy to network profusely.
So how does a Redfish like myself grow? Our writing ability is subpar. We likely have no artistic skills to showcase. Just an average user that stumbled on Steemit and am now invested in personal growth and that of the STEEM cryptocurrency.
Disclaimer
Post is my own experience on this platform. Everyone has a different experience depending on what communities you join and which support you receive on your journey here.
Engagement and Communities
Starting from this point 4 months ago in Asher’s (@abh12345) Curation and Engagement Leagues, @beeyou has consistently been on the ranking for League 2 with Engagement. We’ve even made it to the top 10 for several weeks.
Engagement, check!
As far as community involvement, I’ve been involved with @newbieresteemday from the start helping newbies with guidance and support with the ABC’s of Curation team, and working in tandem with Curie curators to get some of the newbies curie’d. I’ve recently joined the @comedyopenmic community and receive community support from @yabapmatt (no, not the bidbot community). I am also part of @abh12345’s Curation & Engagement Leagues, although it is not an official community.
Given my limited time on this platform, I don’t have that much time to discover which other high school clubs I’m interested in joining. Except for @steemmonsters, this new one I like!
Community involvement, check!
Organic or Non-Organic?
There are posts out there about growing organically and the pit-falls of bidbots. Some individuals have taken stances on their position to grow on this platform. Some choose to grow through organic means, some a combo of bidbot/organic, and some have even asserted their position to not support individuals that have bid-bot involvement. I do see the one-sidedness of the story and came across Bid Bots: The Dangers of a Single Story written by @gandhibaba that portrays another side of the story.
In my professional work, I look for the root cause(s) of an issue. What I’ve come to realize is that many of the individuals expressing strong opinions have been on this platform before December, 2017. Keep in mind that it is around this period that STEEM prices drastically increased in price so they have a higher SP stake.
Every one of these individuals have a support system already in place.
In my opinion, it is difficult for a newbie redfish that started late in the game to expect the same growth as an established Steemian who was here early and saw their investment exponential increase with the growth of STEEM and the linear rewards hardfork change of last year.
From an investment perspective, one is now paying 10-20x the price of STEEM compared to early adopters. As far as upvote support, many Redfishes and Minnows have minimal support if they don’t attract the attention of a community, dolphin, orca, or whale.
I am not knowledgeable about this platform to advise anyone of the best method of growth. I can only provide my analysis from a small experiment undertaken a month ago from a fellow Redfish’s perspective.
Reason for experiment
My initial Case of the Disappearing Cookie post was really a parody of another cookie post that made it to Trending. I don’t think I have a funny bone in me, but come on, how many photographs can one take of the same plate of cookies? So I used all the SBDs earned from my start in January, 2018 to bidbot my post to sky-heaven (or as far as $53 SBD would take). It really was more like, "What the heck, what do I have to lose?" type of mentality.
Experiment 1: Use bidbots (includes vote selling)
Case of the Disappearing Cookie
I replicated the same bidbot steps as the cookie post in Trending. In all honesty, I could have resulted in no SBD loss if I had stuck to only one or two of the services offered, but I wanted to take the same steps as the Trending cookie post.
Bidbots used (in order of best bang for the buck back then) : @minnowbooster, @promobot, @smartsteem
Please also keep in mind I am not a whitelisted member of @smartsteem/@smartmarket.
Assumption Applied: If SBD/STEEM conversion is at a 1:1 ratio scenario as it had been for months
Experiment 2: Rely on community support
Fine Line Between Sarcasm and Funny
I used several community hashtags to see what community support I would receive by going organic. My two biggest community support was from @yabapmatt and @comedyopenmic.
Experiment 3: Not relying on community support hashtags and simply using common Steemit hashtags
Rediscovering Music - Songs/Videos and Dreams (Part 4)
I still received community support from @yabapmatt and a random support from @redes BUT this is not a typical scenario for an average Redfish. IMO, this post is an exception and not the norm. See current post below for realistic expectations.
A more realistic portrayal of earnings for a Redfish
Weekends are Days for Running Errands
As you can see, @yabapmatt is our team’s biggest supporter. I had hoped to not receive his support on my music post so I can show a realistic portrayal of a redfish’s earnings when going organic because the reality for many redfishes is that they do not have a support of a dolphin or whale.
Matt is super busy with @steemmonsters so my last two silly posts are more realistic portrayals of a redfish’s post with a small support system.
Pending Payout: $1.48
Conclusion
As you can see from this one experiment, community engagement alone will not result in fast growth here on Steemit. Although my bidbot post resulted in a loss of SBD (which would never had happened if I didn’t take every step the Trending cookie post did), it resulted in the most ROI for my time invested in writing a post.
In no way am I advocating the use of bidbots. We all have our own values and beliefs in this platform. From my own standpoint, I would not stop showing support to my favorite authors because they decide to grow on this platform using bidbots. It is the abuse of the promotional services that I am against, as you can see on my Perspective post. Hmm..why did I bidbot everyones’ comments except for a selected few then decide to put a steem bounty on the post?
As for using the promotional services myself, I’m not against it either. As you can see, I don’t write often. If the marketing condition is right, I would not hesitate to market my post. My biggest supporter on this platform is a bidbot owner. He surely would not mind.
Thank you for stopping by! Have a BEE-ATIFIC day!
Image Sources:
Coinmarketcap, Snippet from Steemworld and Steemd, Divider, photo original.
You gotta play in the gray areas. If you play straight up with these animals they will eat you alive. You have to be a savage or at least horrible to some extent. I just treat it like racing , if it is not spelled out very specificly as "illegal" then it is totally legal.
to make money with the bid bot, you must become one with the bid bot.
Aaah, @doomsdaychassis. I was just thinking about you earlier and here you are.
Lol, I knew you’d know the answer to all the questions that are messing with my mind. You’ve posted it above even before I posted my questions (see my own comment on this post).
Maybe I should have read the comments section before I commented myself. Would have saved me a whole lot of typing :0)
I replied to your comment. I was thinking about making a post of my own in response because I know @beeyou hates when i go off on a profanity ridden rant in her posts so I try to clean it up a bit out of respect in her comment area.
Lol, what did I do to deserve such respect? 😁
I guess because you were nice to me and made me get on discord. lol . now I am just horrible half the time.
:)
I think you rep will surpass me soon and I will then be the student! 😬😝🏝
look who is a 56 now
:)
omg, this world is going to burn.
I can't wait till I am a 70 and get to set examples for new steemians
:)
There won't be a world left to burn by then.
Very interesting post, @beeyou. Although it doesn’t really help solving the things I’m struggling with at the moment.
Just a couple of weeks ago, I said I’d stop using the bidbots and would not sell my votes anymore.
90% of my curation has always been done manually. Until I went to the hospital a little over 3 weeks ago. Because I knew I wouldn’t be able to manually curate for a while, I followed some curation trails and set up some auto-votes.
That gave me 10 to 20 times more profits in curation rewards (and proves how much I suck at curating, lol).
Earlier this week I read a post by someone (I don’t remember which post by whom, because I didn’t comment - it just made me think) that discussed a couple of things, of which one was the 50/50 self-vote.
I stopped self-voting long ago, because I wanted my upvoters to earn some curation rewards. Then there was @abh12345’s league with the incentive of not self-voting. (I did self-upvote a couple of my posts last week, but only after a couple of days).
And now there is your post...
I’m just trying to say that I’m doubting my entire ‘strategy’, if you can call it a strategy.
I want to do the good thing and help others grow. But when I focus on growing my own account at maximum speed, won’t I be able to help others more than I do now...?? Is it selfish/respectless/stupid or whatever to use the bidbots, autocurate for max rewards, self-upvote and so on? Or is it the smart thing to do?
The bigger I can grow my account, the more I can support others...
I’m really losing my head over this. :0(
(Maybe I should turn this into a post to see what others have got to say about this)
And this is why we are steadily seeing the good people side towards Bot usage, and I'm feeling like you here.
If they are proven to grow your account quicker, and your end goal is not to be a selfish doofus, then growing your account (in any way possible) seems 'fair'.
I'm no longer publicly on the bid-bot hate wagon, and many accounts I support do use bots. A post written by @aggroed months ago summed it up, (and I'm paraphrasing), 'if you don't use them then someone else will' (and their content is likely to be worse.
I appreciate you stopping by to comment Asher. We all respect you and hearing your thoughts on things.
Well thanks :)
My new philosophy is edging towards 'do what you gotta do', there is a lot of BS going on, so whatever you need to do to grow your account to in turn help others is fine by me.
There is a reason you are my favorite SOG! 🙂
awww, shucks 😊
Thanks, Asher. I’m glad I changed my mind in the end and tagged you anyway :0)
It’s a real moral struggle.
Instead of making loads of money delegating to one or more bidbots, I delegate to individuals who are in the bandwidth-error-zone and initiatives like @newbieresteemday, @friendsofgondor, @dustsweeper and a couple of others. The only (small) delegation profits I make are from @trufflepig and @transparencybot. Is it smart? No, but I think it’s the right thing to do. (And about the only part of my ‘strategy’ I have no doubts about.)
But I thought that not self-voting and not using the bots were the right thing to do too... until I read that article a couple of days ago (don’t remember which one, it was something about SteemIt needing a middle class urgently).
So now I have to decide which way to go, and it is more difficult than I thought it would be. It feels a bit like betraying myself, betraying my followers...
I do like being tagged on this kind of topic 😊
Honestly, you guys delegating out even with just a few hundred SP are saints - this was not the case when the fork first landed - only the big guys this this to start.
Like you, I have 000's out for free, but have kept some back to support people too - finding this balance is tough.
Bot delegations I still consider self-votes, but perhaps a % should be sent there while we wait for SMTs and the potential to delegate to a more 'worthy' cause arrives.
I think as long as the approach is balanced bot/community/saved for friends then you aren't betraying anyone.
Looking forward to hearing how you and @beeyou choose to Steem-it going forward 😊
Future Steem-it path:
I would never want to one day realize I have become the same selfish, egotistical, and greedy people on this platform. If that happens, then evil won. They turned someone who came on here thinking an upvote could change peoples’ lives in third world countries to another selfish success story. I would hate myself being like that so I would never want to lose sight of my true nature.
I will grow but will never lose sight of everyone that walked ahead or besides me that is on the journey with me. Even new bees that might want to join the party are welcome. As long as they’re not bounty hunters, the more the merrier!
This sounds good to me, I think we are taking a similar route :)
Still struggling so far. I need to be able to look into the mirror every day. Still I feel I have little choice, if I want to grow my account at a faster pace.
I will probably keep going back and forth for a while before I can make up my mind. Try out a couple of things and see how that makes me feel.
Point is that I truely believe it is in my best interest - and that of the people i want to support - to grow my account as fast as possible...
Which means I’ve got to find a way to bend the rules so they can work in my advantage, but don’t bend them too far so I can keep the honour to myself...
If it can be done in the code, it's not a rule bend/break.
'We' worry too much. Write an awesome post and boost it to Trending :D
Lol. I still got to write my first awesome post that is worth sending to Trending ;0)
And I completely agree on the worrying. It’s like the story of my life...
When have we been ones to follow the rules? ;)
As long as we are not douchebags and greedy individuals that are not happy with a slice of pie and want the whole thing.
See my thing here is kinda the same as what you said. The quicker I can grow my account the faster I can help others. It is kind of a well kept secret around here that I am kind of a D bag so keep it under your hat so no one finds out, but what they don't see is that I am delegating a 1/4 of my total steem power to @newbieresteemday and @thehive . When I started doing it it was HALF of my total steem power. Why? because I remember how damn hard it was starting out. I am just getting my legs under me now and am figuring out all the ins and outs of everything. I love playing the dumb guy in the room act, but if you think you can just organicly grow on here when you are putting out mediocore at best content like I probably do then you are just retarded. If you don't come in as a newbie with a big name like the hodge twins or have some preset super scam in place then it is simply NOT going to happen. Can you grow? Absolutely. Will it be fast. probably not. I think of it this way. You have the same odds of becoming a whale on steemit organicly as you do becoming an NBA SUPERSTAR in my opinion. With me being a 6 foot tall , 200 pound white guy I have come to the realization that neither are going to happen in this lifetime so I do what I do at the race track. Go 100 mph, throw that bitch into the corner and hope it sticks. If it don't I am going to hit a big ass wall and it is going to fucking hurt. I have learned that people always say they want the truth but then they get real pissed off when I give it to them. Let me know if any of this seems off or untrue. :)
For what it’s worth, I never thought of you as a D bag, but hey, I still miss a lot, lol.
I think that’s how I got to know your name: as one of the delegators to @newbieresteemday.
It’s an honourable gesture, and I delegated to get NRD to 500sp for the same reason you did: because I remember how important it is to get support when you’re new.
The thing is... I don’t have the feeling it’s getting any easier, in spite of the fact that I’m near to rep score 57...
The parallels with my ‘real life’ struggles seem to get more obvious every day. There’s no use in putting other people’s wellbeing before your own and just be happy with the little bit that is left. Being an idealist is nice, but it won’t get you anywhere.
Why play by the rules you’ve set for yourself - why no one else is doing it? It’s just plain naive...
If anything it gets harder after rep score 45 because all the help mechanisms cut you off at 45 rep
The exact reason me and @beeyou have been trying to come up with an idea to keep some sort of support system in place for people that get cut off at 45 and people like us. So far, we haven’t been able to find any good ideas, unfortunately.
Still I believe it is necessary to make it a little easier for everyone who loses the newcomers support..,
I see everyone's comments, but just haven't found the time needed to reply back with something that is not "spammy". Will try to get back to everyone tonight, I hope.
I didn't mean I was really a D bag. I just play one on steemit.
:)
Lol
Wait, you are or are not a a D bag? 😉
I have never seen you typed so much!
Depends on the day.........
Hi @simplymike. I hope you are feeling better since the hospital visit.
I noticed the same when I started following curation trails and set up autovotes. I would love to have all the time in the world to manually curate, but it’s simply too time consuming (for me anyway). I actually prefer to set autovotes so my votes can get casted when I’m not available. I read those posts by my favorite authors later.
I see Asher quoted the same and gave his reply to you. I really don’t know if is black or white on here. Many activities on this platform falls somewhere in between. It is my opinion only, but if you are true to yourself, then you can’t go wrong with the decision you make. If it is your supporters you are worried about, why? If they are truly your supporters, because why else would they support you if not because they share the same interest or are like-minded, then they would continue to support you.
Asher for instance. I have tremendous respect for him and I know (at least think I do) that he would continue to show his support for me even if I use bots. I know all my true supporters would not mind either because they support me. I have many supporters that prefer to grow organic and I respect them too. If I am being true to myself, I don’t think I’m being selfish by trying to grow so I can help others grow along with me. I’ve tried to grow on this platform in different ways just like you. I’ve come to realize that organic growth is the idealist viewpoint. I consider myself a good person and a smart investor and a combination of an idealist/realist. Smart growth is NOT something to be ashamed of.
If I start abusing the system, well, I probably won’t be such a good person anymore and wouldn’t care one bit what others think of me. 😉
Some good points you make there, @beeyou.
Your comment made me realize I am allowed to change my mind about things. ‘cos that happens when you grow and learn more. The only one I need to stay true of is myself. And I’m not the person I was yesterday, nor am I the one I will be tomorrow.
A little trust in myself would do no harm :0)
I do not like the principle behind bid bots. reasons I won't go into, but If I am to grow I feel have no choice but to use them,
We all have our reasons for the actions we take @jan23com. Steemit Inc should see that something is fundamentally wrong with their rewards structure when users start to feel they can’t depend on peer support and have to turn to bots for growth.
Just so you know I read this and all the comments... I see the shift by some and notice all the reactions! Just letting you know! ;)
Appreciate that you stopped by. 🙂
Self deprecation doesn't suit you ;) You are a fine writer.
You are very kind @antimetica. I appreciate you taking the time to stop by and read my post. 🙂
Interesting experiment. .. I noticed the same thing about most with a strong stance on bid-bots. They got into Steemit when the price was low enough that it didn't cost much to become a small dolphin.
I think some of these bigger accounts don't realize how hard it is to grow as a new member here. I challenge them to open a new account and without any support from their old account or letting anyone know their new accounts ID to start fresh and see how hard it is.
Lol I agree with you sometimes I facepalm with some hypocrites and say that with quality which is subjective, engagement and networking anyone can be successful.
He'll I network like a Multi level Marketing person in a room full of gullible people but I am not nearly enough able to resign and do full Steemit.
I have challenged some people to do that but so far no takers yet hahha.
Hi @rentmoney. The funny thing is, I read one post where an early adopter was against the hard fork change because it would ruin the platform and encourage greed and selfishness. One year later, the person had profitted from the changes and is now vote selling and whatever else.
I just feel it’s easier for someone to take a strong stance on a subject matter when they have a support system in place. It’s a diffferent story for us just starting out without any support system and a big gap in between.
For me, there is always a "fudge factor" in this picture. That fudge factor is called "I just have a good time creating content and engaging with others on the platform."
Even though my account name prominently has "Curator" in it, I basically suck at curating... because I rend to read and support (with my tiny stake) based on the metric of "helping others" rather than "maximizing rewards." I actually got excited a couple of days ago because I earned curation rewards of 0.006 SP for a post!
My primary reason for continuing as I am doing is that I feel pretty sure that I can depend on social engagement continuing into the future. Bid bots could suddenly become a "non-thing," next week... so I don't want to hitch my success to that wagon.
Interesting post and experiment, however!
=^..^=
You remind me very much of myself when I first started out. :) I still love helping others, but it's harder nowadays for me to find time to come online.
Social engagement and community will continue into the future because even if steemit turns into a "business platform", well, every business needs customers. There is too much stake in bidbots for it to go away but I do respect how you are engaging and curating and helping others. Always continue with what you feel is best for you. :)
Congratulations dear @beeyou for another great and eye-opening post! I appreciate your scientific approach and analysis of different strategies on steemit as I'm a very analytical person myself. Your results helped me to gain a more detailed understanding of the reward mechanisms behind the steemit system and steemit community.
In fact, according to your results it's almost impossible to become successful as a newbie on steemit in a reasonable time without investing in SP or being lucky to get immediate support from big fishes/whales.
As a small fish I was experimenting lateley myself with using bidbots in small amounts and other/community strategies. Therefore I can confirm, that the fastest way to grow (in my case it can be called "micro-growth" compared to other participants - as I haven't invested any own money on steemit, just my own time and the SBD I gained so far on steemit;-)) is the strategy with using bid-bots. I can also understand that the use of bid-bots is double-edged. But I think as long bid-bots are used consciously according to one's own integrity standards it should not be judged.
At least it's all about having either enough time to make the exhausting work or having enough money to invest in order to become successful on steemit. And yes of course quality content plays also a big role in this 'game' but as you said quality is always subjective;-)
Finally I have a question for you dear @beeyou:
I like the format of your experimenting approach and consider doing a similar experiment within the german community. Would you mind if I could adopt some of your analysis tools in german (of course I would refer to you/your post as my initial inspiration source;-) - sorry my english is not so good, I hope you understand how I mean my request;-))
Anyway thank you very much for sharing such profound (can I say scientifically validated?) and helpful content, especially for new steemians:-)))
Hi @zuckerzombie, I do enjoy reading your comments. I remember you from my Perspectives post. 🙂
I am fairly new myself so be sure you take other people’s perspectives as well as your own experience when determining your own path of growth.
You are analytical! Absolutely agree. If you are judged for your actions, well, then those supporters just don’t share the same viewpoint as you. Doesn’t mean that one or the other is right or wrong, just differences in opinions.
Of course! Please feel free to use any aspect of this post for your experiment and adopt any of my analysis tools (you are too kind with those word choices 😂). I’m actually not very analytical but sweet of you to think so! 🙂 No need to credit me but I will be happy to stop by to show my small support if you tag me.
Sorry for getting back so late with an answer. It’s challenging for me to find time for Steemit. I see the messages but don’t always have time to reply right back. Definitely don’t use “scientifically validated”, lol, the scientific minds on here might come tear my mini experiment to pieces.
Thank you @beeyou for allowing me to use your tools. You are always so kind;-) Right now due to family issues I have some trouble finding the time for steemit, too. When I will post my own research according to your example I will definitely tag you:-)))
I hope everything goes well for you in the real world. I understand completely about family and real life issues. Steemit should never take priority. My best to you. :)
💕💕💕
Great resume of your experiments @beeyou!
I do think that it all starts with engagement and being genuine. Besides being part of a community, using bid bots and so on, this will make your account grow faster and organically!
The biggest plus of belonging to a community is that it is easier to find people with shared interest which gives you more chance to interact.
Interacting is like making so advertisement for your own person/blog/account!
We all need to have some basic support. The best thing is to end up on an automatic upvote list from others. This will keep you motivated to post and feel something like a reward!
We should not focus on the steem and steem power part. For sure in the first months, up until maybe half a year, it should be seen as a nice side effect! It will grow when you are interactive and genuine, regardless of belonging to a community or not!
Just write about the passions we have or comment on the articles which deserve it!
Cheers,
Peter
Hi Peter. It’s been some time since we bumped into each other, last was probably the 2 cent posts. 🙂
You made some good points about engagement and genuinity, definitely agree. Engagement is tiring business and not being a social , it is hard to keep up at times. I am happy with the group of friends on here that show their support to me. For me, it’s these like-minded individuals that keep me coming back. I definitely understand the reasons for the retention rate on here especially if one is alone. I know I would probably have quit early on if I didn’t have the NRD community and group of friends (even if they are all virtual friends).
You are so positive! I hope you’ve found your fit and continue to spread positivity. 🙂
I say that you are a good writer and good in engagement and commenting.
That was a pretty neat experiment and data analysis that you did and shows the effect of going organic and going no bid bot.
It is no secret that I use bid bot and use smartsteem, post promoter and appreciator most of the time. .
I also use upme and rocky1 from time to time if I feel that it is not that good.
I take using organic and bidbots in the same time and my SP gain has improved dramatically that I am nearing my 1k Target
Combination of good content, rightly botted and Communities has been my key to growth.
Sure I lost some individuals ( one dolphin in particular) because he saw that I was botting up but I am okay because I am growing faster.
I get it to matter here you need SP and with a charity account @giftinkindph that I am delegating to I need all means necessary to grow.
I have to admit that I feel the temptation to shitty post, sell my vote and forget the community but my values and beliefs won't make me do it.
So I will continue with what I am doing until I reach my goals and become relevant.
Thanks for providing insights into your strategy dear @maverickinvictus:-)) This is very valuable for me to figure out my own steemit-path in accordance to my own values and beliefs;-)
Mave, also don't forget that the stronger your account becomes, the more power you have to support the one whom deserve it!
And if one deserves to reach the goal of the 1K target, it is you!
My personal target has been set op 500 SP, hoping that I can achieve it before November. It would require a growth of 10SP per week, which should be feasible if I do stay interactive!
Cheers,
Peter
keep going mav, you are on the right path
Mave, you know I admire all you do for the communities you’re involved in. I don’t know how you do it all to be quite honest. It is also admirable you have the charity you are involved with.
You made some valid points about growing via community support, organically and with bots. As you’ve already witnessed, it does take all mechanisms to grow your account to where you can also help others. The fact that you are still involved with your communities will keep you from becoming the same reasons people blame this platform for failing. Use it, don’t abuse it is my way of thinking.
Hope you reach your goals!