Filling the Bid Bot Hole
The chances of getting negative curation, aka the almighty downvote, for using Bid Bots is very high post-HF21. Organic curation is replacing the artificial botted user experience.
Keep your posts bid bot free to avoid negating downvotes.
Yeah it's real shitty to write this post. I support organic curation and content discovery. I also support everyone's right to decide on whatever the fuck they want to do on a decentralized platfrom as long as they're not screwing over anyone else.
Does bid bot use screw other people over? In part, yes. It draws rewards from the communal reward pool. In part, no, as bid bot owners have to maintain their investments powered up. It's a balance. You got to look at both sides. Lots of bid botted crap got published over the last few years. A lot of it was pure filth that wouldn't earn a penny otherwise. Can be said that it's that history of filth that's fueling the current war on bid bots and bid bot users.
Bid bot use kills the sense of authenticity in post valuation. It leads to a lot of reward disagreement. You figure you deserve the rewards and you obviously do, because it's you and you know how hard you worked (or didn't work) to get that post out. Others see inflated values. That's one take. To look at it from the other side, who's to say that non-botted posts have a deserved value? The guy with the $50 in real user upvotes might just be best buds with the right people. Who the hell's to know. It's a fucking nightmare sorting this shit out.
I'm not a bot user myself. I'm such a shit bot user that the one time I had to use one for a promotion I had to ask my buddy to figure it out for me. Using a bid bot isn't easy. It's easier to run one, which I helped do for a time. It's fun to build them that much I can attest to. I don't know what role, if any, bid bots will have in 2020. They may all die out. They may evolve.
For now, those who use them got a real problem and that problem is they're putting a target on their back. It's seen as artificial reward manipulation. I don't want to tell anyone what to do. Everyone has the right to self-determination. I'll be straight up here. I joined back when we saw dogshit on Trending at 2k, mostly thanks to certain whale accounts. A bid botted $10 post isn't pulling that trigger for me. Not everyone has that image of the old 2016 Trending burned into their mind. We got a new set of users and makers out here now and the ecosystem took a drastic shift.
So I'm not going to tell you what to do. But I'm going to tell you what I figure I'd do and what I'd do right now is stay the fuck away from bid bots and focus on organic curation. Get to know some groups. Form one. Work towards increasing content discovery. What's the point of writing if no one's seeing it? Bots aren't the answer. No one reads bid botted posts; you just feel better about doing all that damn work when you see some numbers on the post, never mind you paid for those numbers.
Solutions
When I see a hole in the drywall I see a solution. The solution is to patch the hole. There's no point in crying over this hole. It'll be a hole forever if you don't patch it up. Best is to take all that reliance on bid bots, throw it out, and readjust. Figure out how to fill that hole together.
I got the idea for the @dline project by looking at curation groups. The idea for there to be a retention project without anyone knowing it exists. Users aren't supposed to know they got dlined. They get their votes and comments and never know how it happened. It's a different but thankless approach. But that's the thing here, we need more of these approaches. Not going to tell you that I thought of something brilliant. Going to tell you that you can think of something brilliant.
So that's your challenge right here: think of something brilliant. Don't give up. You built up too many bridges to give up. Just think and ask for help if you need it. Got some amazing venture or post you worked your ass off for? Tell me. Anyone can message me. If I miss it just message again. I take messages from everyone. I'll never downvote you for sending me a link or for taking up my time. Speak up, ask, think forward and fix that hole.
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Something often overlooked is the actual content producer's perspective and the fact those bots and members who use them push all the other work aside, down, and out of sight. It's much like downvoting. Same results if upvoting means that post moves up the trending or hot page and downvoting means that post moves down the ranks.
So I'd produce 'art' and use the art tag. People would use the 'art' tag with bidbots. My work vanished. Theirs sat at the top... but nobody cared about it. When we had a view counter, I'd have hundreds of views some days from my following, but rarely see a new face. Meanwhile the posts with fake rewards had little to no views, no comments, nothing.
I wasn't going to pay a toll to the people who made the mess, just to get out of the mess. No thanks.
There was no chance to earn visibility. Couldn't even compete for it. It was out of reach. People had to leave because not only were the bidbotted posts sitting all high and mighty not receiving views, votes or comments. It was like working in front of an empty venue for majority of the rest.
There was no balance. The entire system was shot to shit. More people were paid to look away and making more doing that than the minority who chose to get paid to look.
"As long as they're not screwing over anyone else." Exactly.
well said, NoNamesLeft!!!
Getting a comment from you is like being noticed by senpai after years.
Never thought about bid bot use in that perspective. Probably because I'm not a content producer these days. That's a great point though. Haven't seen anyone put it like that. The fact that bid bot posts just push everything down and don't allow any chance for fair play really warped content discovery. It's changing now. I know you're one of the creators who finally got more visibility now that HF21 hit, so that means we're actually doing something right for a change.
I said that and things similar for two years. Hundreds of post published in that time. Each one, I knew, before hitting that post button... I'd be going nowhere. I wrote posts joking about it. I wrote posts pointing out the problem. I spoke to vote sellers and got called names! LOL!
So now there's a new problem. Yes, I've finally gained some visibility and when I feel uncomfortable with it people reassure me I've earned it and deserve it, so that's cool. I don't want to be pulling a CHB out there, if you know what I mean.
The new problem though is the fact this top slot real estate needs to gain consumer trust. For years many knew the trending and hot pages were rigged and full of crap, so many refused to look. They need to once again feel comfortable going there to see what's up. If that consumer trust isn't there, then the benefits of being there aren't as beneficial as they are supposed to be. You'll notice I get a lot of engagement. I know most of those people. I'm rarely seeing a new face and I won't be using tricks and gimmicks like "Everyone who leaves a comment gets a vote" posts either. I want that shit to be as organic as it can get.
Things are improving though. Quite a bit. I pay close attention. Even when I scroll through my own feed, I'm seeing money beside posts. Before, guess what? There wasn't much money there! I only followed accounts that didn't buy votes. Now those accounts are gaining traction again. That's a big deal.
I hope things get even better for everyone.
I'm not a fan of the word "deserves" when used on Steem. Everyone uses it and I get how uncomfortable it feels. I really don't like hearing it connection to witness voting (that's where it normally comes up).
I don't think there was ever any consumer trust in Trending. In my recollection we went from what I can only describe as dogshit filth in Trending when Steemit launched and started gaining momentum. 15k to some random YouTube girl. 10k to Berwick. Smoothies. It cost us. It made us look superficial and no serious content producer would touch us. Then we had crap like Sweetssssj travel posturing and other scammers/vote traders. Then we had all the bid bot crap, most of it projects ripped off from OS and I don't even know what because who'd read that. That trust never existed but now there's a chance to start getting it established. Agreed.
It's not deserves as in entitled. They're just trying to tell me it's okay and not offending anyone. Any measure of 'success' here is often scrutinized. Many don't believe you if you say you never made any deals behind the scenes for votes. Some don't believe hard work matters. Some think organic is all bullshit. It's not what you do, it's always something else. So that can be stressful.
What you said is the 'success' people are used to seeing. There was always something shady about it so now people have trust issues. So yes, hopefully now things will get better with this organic push. People are actually trying and much of the riffraff can now be dealt with. I truly hope things improve. I've seen it all. It's about time everyone learn and figure this mess out, do it right, or at least as best as they can.
Throughout the three and a half years I have spent on the Steem Blockchain there have been many people who have enthralled and amazed me. When I was young (which was a very long time ago) I read physical books (a dying art in 2019) including pretty much everything Enid Blyton wrote, as I got older all Stephen Kings works and also Isaac Asimov. Why this is relevant is because as writers they engaged me, I had to read more. And on the Steem Blockchain there are a few select authors who engage me just as much, you @nonameslefttouse are one of those people who write in such an engaging manner it is truly amazing, writing can take many forms but when it is most incredible is when you can write with superb clarity - with no anger or aggression. It is an incredible talent, to debate without needing to try and belittle or force impression on people. There are a few on the the Steem Blockchain I know do this so well like you - who can make a point and hold and audience without any anger or aggression. During my early period on here I know a few accounts that could write in such a perfect way, most have been and gone @dreemsteem was amazing but sadly HF21 drove away. I have to admit @theycallmedan has a truly amazing way with words and I can read over and over anything he writes.
I totally agree with you that the Steem Blockchain needs more curators supporting posts, and less people trying to be content creators and curators at the same time. It needs to look at the people who are amazing and bring them forward into the public view, while taking the time to make it financially viable for everyone else to support their work.
I never know what to say or how to write it when comments like this show up in my world, other than thank you.
I still have my human moments though and things can fall apart fairly quickly. Mistakes we all learn from. I don't like feeling bad after saying things that only exist because of the heat of the moment. I could show you a few examples of my darkest hours... LOL!
Dreemsteem will remember how hard I tried to convince her to stay. I tried every trick in the book to break through her self-proclaimed stubbornness. Like so many others, I think she would have been finding success now under this new model. We argued and laughed at the same time. That was a unique experience.
Theycallmedan has a fancy way of taking what he sees in his head and painting a picture with words for all to see. Quite the motivator. Talks the talk and walks the walk.
There's a lot of unrealized potential with this concept. I've written about it plenty of times in posts and comments. Sometimes I think if I could just project what I see inside the minds of those interested, they'd see the entire entertainment industry business model shift towards what can be achieved here and the old ways would be left in the dust.
Yep...I remember 😊
And I'll have you know... My stubbornness is not self-proclaimed!!!😂 Ask @bluefinstudios, @shadowspub or @penderis. They will tell you I'm the most stubborn mule they know... Hehehehe
I did appreciate laughing through our disagreement! And glad to hear you're getting more visibility!!
And @c0ff33a ...thank you for the lovely words!! I think you're pretty amazing too 🤗
Solid points.
Wehn bidbots were around. I had to use them because it was the only way to get noticed since no one was curating. I was beginning to think I had joined a weird cult.
I sort of agree with this. However downvoting is also a right. Does that mean being downvoted is a risk? We have a responsibility/ freedom to avoid getting a downvote by 'being good Steemians' (you can call it something else).
You can't get downvoted if you don't post. That was the issue before. For a social media platform, 90% of the SP was owned by people who never posted.
I feel bad for people who invested at 3 or 6 or whatever dollars per steem, I think I bough a few above 1. The point is, the price was over inflated. The system collapsed and we are trying to scrap up the pieces.
It won't happen with bid bots around.
I always tell the hold outs, start a bid bot scot tribe, use the minimal amount of sp to have your rc, then make a bot that only accepts your token for bids in your token....see how well your tribe does.
No one takes up this challenge because they all know bid bots only worked for few people when few people were using them. It was like the aristocracy blaming the peasants for being unruly.
Just wanting to applaud this gem:
Agreed! :-)
I think people in general find one thing wrong with something or one thing right with something and that makes their mind up. Any discussion after that point seems to declare war for some reason. The auto defence is way out of control in a lot of instance.
There are a few points I would like to debate over from this post. I will try write a post in response.
I am aware of the views of those who down vote and the reasons said. One of the things I have often said in my quest here on Steemit is.
Everyone counts and matters.
I would follow this with.
The most foolish of us can ask more questions than the wisest can answer. Questions. I have so many, maybe it is I who is the foolish one. Or maybe not. A wasted question is the one unasked.
If you would like to read the post I will do. Mention to tag you in a reply.
One thing that people don't say is that without bidbots the great majority of the posts will not receive full rewards because they don't reach the minimum 20 steem value. I think bidbots should be allowed to help anyone to reach full reward.
How about a maximum value for an upvote? Or better, instead of blindly downvoting all the bidbots users, why don't these "paladins of the downvote" simply check the value of the bought upvote?
Hey buddy, great post as always.
I still receive downvotes on every post from my 3 accounts everyday. I stopped using bid bots around 1 week on 2 accounts and i have never used any bidding service on the last One is my personal account, another is @steemcryptosicko and the last is @spinvest. I dont profit from the last 2 at all and they are so community driven, it sadness me to get downvotes on them for whatever the reason maybe. I can understand CryptoSicko a little but spinvest is pure.
I think that curation trails are worse than bidding bots and lead to less manual curation in the end. At least with bidding bots, you never committed any of your voting power.
Keep it real Guilty
Those two accounts with 15 SP each won't hurt you and their voting power is quite low as well. Accounts like that aren't downvoting because of bidbots or anything. Just being a nuisance. Treat them like a Youtuber would when they get thousands of dislikes. They mean nothing. Are any larger accounts downvoting? I didn't dig through two weeks of history on all three accounts.
Yeah, that dont bother me that much, just annoying. I dont get downvotes from big accounts. Im just hoping they are newsteem safe and it's been hard finding answers to the honest.
I realize this is slightly off topic, but, Bidbots bring to mind Downvotes, and there's been a recent Downvote spate.
Some of the downvoting is going on by new, tiny SP accounts seemingly pointing back to CamilleSteemer.
I notice many of these new accounts are still working on SP delegated by their initial 15SP Delegation from SteemitInc.
I see tiny transactions being sent form the the wallets, to another account.
I was wondering, @justinw is it possible to Code that people still working off their initial Delegation are NOT allowed to move Steem out, until they PayOff their initial delegation? Maybe one way to limit the effectiveness of these new spammers?
would this help cut down on the issue?
@bluefinstudios it is not possible to prevent people from withdrawing any of their own stake, no. Something like that would require a hard fork, and, that would likely be a very controversial topic - even if it had 'good intentions'.
However, if you notice people abusing their free 15SP delegation loan, you can submit here for it to be removed: https://github.com/steemit/redeemer-irredeemables (this has been done for thousands of accounts)
The way the free delegation loan currently works is that their delegation is slowly removed as they gain more of their own SP. It's also highly reduced if they are inactive for a long time (leaving just enough to become active again in order to keep good UX for returning users).
Where exactly would someone report an account like https://steemit.com/@jixta ?
I see the github, but where is the place to report?
seems that all jixta does is downvote and send money to Camileresteemer
thanks @guiltyparties and thanks @jackmiller for presenting this on @pypt #pypt
It brings up a really important point and I am glad we are still talking about it.
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