SBD is broken, why not just remove it?

in #sbd7 years ago

Lately there has been discussion around SBD which should be a token pegged to US dollar. The peg hasn't been holding very well. The situation isn't catastrophic because the error has been in the upper side (SBD is worth more than one dollar), but the system is still broken, nonetheless.

Root cause is the fact that the amount of SBD doesn't change according to the supply and demand of the markets. There has been a lot more demand for SBD so the price has gone way too much up. If the Steem blockchain can't print more SBD when there is more demand, the peg won't hold.

But if the blockchain starts to print more SBD, there is a systemic risk. If the price of steem goes down, the liability for backing the SBD token will be much bigger.

The usecase for a stable cryptocurrency is to help normal people to use it as a currency. Most people aren't interested in using very volatile currency in daily activities. SBD was supposed to help with this. But so far we haven't seen market places or any other real usecases for SBD although it has been existed for more than a year.

So we have two facts that speak against SBD: it can't hold the peg, and pretty much nobody is using it for what is was created for.

And here his a third. A while ago @dwinblood wondered where have some of the anarchism/voluntarism celebrities gone. It seems that they were motivated mostly by money, so when the price of steem went down, they didn't find writing here profitable enough anymore.

The dollar sum indicating how much a post has earned goes down when the price of steem goes down. I think we have now pretty good evidence that when users see dollars, they think in dollars. They forget that they earn also steem tokens which will become more valuable if the demand goes back up someday.

The funny thing is, those successful authors who left the platform when the price went down, would have multiplied the value of their earnings if they had stayed and taken their rewards in SP instead of SBD.

But they didn't do so. Why? Because the dollar amount in the posts is so misleading. It's depressing to see it go down.

The solution is simple: Ditch the SBD and start paying rewards only with steem and SP.

When there is no dollar amount in the posts but steem amount instead, it doesn't change everyday depending on volatility of the price. What you see and get is the amount of steem that you are rewarded by the upvotes. That is more accurate showing you if you have been successful because you write so well. Currently authors can have a fake feeling of success just because they wrote their piece when the price of steem was high which made the dollar amount big.

Now you could be developing as writer and become more successful in here, but you don't really see and feel that because your rewards depend more on the price of steem than your writing abilities and popularity.

When users start to think in "reward points" (in this case steem tokens) rather than dollars they will become much more engaged. They don't get discouraged just because cryptocurrency markets happened to go down when they wrote a few good posts.

Because I don't see any good reasons to have stable cryptocurrency on this platform, I suggest we remove it. It will make the user experience better, remove unnecessary systemic risk and make the system overall simpler.

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I see that @ned resteemed this post. I would like to know if Steemit, Inc. agrees with this assessment...that SBDs should be removed. This isn't the first time that they've shown interest/support for calls to eliminate SBDs. Rather than remaining quiet/silent about it, why not state their position and engage in the discussions?

I think these repeated calls for eliminating SBDs are absurd. There's always some reason or another.

When the STEEM price was low and the debt ratio was high, everyone panicked about it and wanted to eliminate SBDs, even though the peg was held.

When STEEM prices are higher and SBDs are trading at a high premium, people are now calling to eliminate them because "the pegging is broken."

What has been true since last fall is that SBDs can be bought/sold for at least one U.S. Dollar. There has been a stable floor for the token. That was the primary intent for it. As long as they're worth at least one U.S. Dollar, I'd say that the experiment with them has been wildly successful. Eliminating them because they currently trade at a premium is just preposterous, in my opinion.

We need long-term thinking here. These reactions to relatively short-term price fluctuations in STEEM/SBDs really should stop. And Steemit, Inc. putting weight behind some of the calls/panic is a little unsettling, to say the least.

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It's fine. For now we can give it some time to correct itself naturally, now that there has been a constant supply for a bit. If it still trades high, a mechanism like the one @timcliff made a post about could be an option.

For the reasons why it should be kept, I left a handful of comments in this post: https://steemit.com/ned/@krnel/ned-on-sbd-does-the-community-want-to-continue-to-be-paid-out-in-steem-dollars

I've noticed that it's movements are kinda correlated with bitcoin's movements. If it keeps this correlation, a very large and fast drop in bitcoin's value could mean a fast drop in sdb value, which could damage the peg, and harmfully affect the ecosystem.

Of course, this analysis could be inaccurate, as steem's price and the entire crypto currency market's market cap are also correlated in the same way, so it might be connected to other price movements. But it still raises the same fear, could a sharp drop in another currency cause a sharp drop in SBD value, damaging the peg, and thus the site as a whole?

What could be done to mitigate such connections in the future?

I've noticed that it's movements are kinda correlated with bitcoin's movements.

Are you talking in terms of USD value or BTC value? Its price in BTC is meant to inversely correlate with BTC's USD value.

If it keeps this correlation, a very large and fast drop in bitcoin's value could mean a fast drop in sdb value

The SBD is a token that can be converted (with a 3.5 day delay) to roughly $1 worth of STEEM. It is this guarantee floor that keeps SBD pegged from below. The theory of pegging from above comes from emission of SBD. If over time it's observed that the pegging pressure from above is inadequate, then we can address that with a limited STEEM->SBD conversion option.

But for now, because of the botched reward pool migration in HF17/18 happening concurrently with irregular market conditions, the recent experience with SBD price isn't enough to say "let's kill SBD." We're on track to it normalizing.

Are you talking in terms of USD value or BTC value? Its price in BTC is meant to inversely correlate with BTC's USD value.

I meant it's movements, with respect to the dollar, correlate proportionally with bitcoin's movements with respect to the dollar. As bitcoin rose, SBD lost it's peg and rose above the dollar. Then, as bitcoin traced back, SBD started falling back towards it's expected value.

I guess the peg from below is a lot stronger than the peg from above, that does make me feel better about it.

I doesn't correct itself naturally because the pegging mechanism doesn't work. It lacks a proper feedback loop to print more SBD according to the demand. SBD demand doesn't have any direct feedback mechanism to encourage more supply.

Total SBD amount is directly linked to the price of steem. To fix the mechanism, it should be directly linked to the supply and demand of SBD. That's the way to achieve price stability.

A major factor of why SBDs ended up losing their peg upwards is because the supply was severely restricted for over a month thanks to the poorly implemented transition of the reward pool. That context should not be ignored in the recent price history of the SBD. Now that supply has returned, we are seeing the value of SBD come down closer and closer to where it's meant to be. Have patience :)

Even if we take that into account, the feedback mechanism for adjusting SBD supply is still far from perfect.

If you think there could be a better way to address SBD supply, why jump straight to the conclusion that SBD has got to go?

I gave also two other reasons: nobody is using it in commerce and paying rewards denominated in dollars distorts users perception of their success on the platform.

...nobody is using it in commerce...

There are many reasons why this has not happened on a larger scale yet, but just because there isn't a large STEEM/SBD economy right now isn't a reason to scrap the SBD token.

As I wrote in my post about this - we shouldn't be reactionary to short-term issues. We need to think long-term.

Also - there isn't much commerce...yet. I'll have an announcement this week that will hopefully start moving things in the right direction.

So how the long-term thinking is showing right now? I see only dreaming. There is no real vision, no actionable steps towards it.

Long-term thinking means that there is a clear goal and people are working to achieve it.

To the first of those reasons, give it some time. Things happen fast in this blockchain world and it takes time for things outside of it to keep up. Patience is key.

The second issue does exist to some extent but it's not a huge problem and does in no way justify removal of SBD in my opinion. The reasons to keep SBD over this are far and away heavier on the scales.

Patience would be great if there were actually something done. But I don't see anything happening. Nobody is working on anything that would enable/encourage SBD usage in commerce.

I consider it to be wishful thinking to dream about commercial use until I can see some real world results.

And another point that I missed in the OP: To be widely used currency, SBD needs a privacy feature. Very few people are willing to use a currency when all transfers can be seen by anybody. Nobody is working on that, either.

If you're still looking to support commerce, here's something you can get behind. It's what I alluded to a few days ago.

https://steemit.com/steem/@bloggingforbeans/blogging-for-beans-a-coffee-venture

Right on, @timcliff's idea is perfect IMO. It's an elegant solution that doesn't require any huge changes.

Steem dollars were never meant to peg strongly to the dollar. Dan always said he EXPECTED SBD to carry a premium and that it was meant to as often as possible be a weak peg with a premium essentially.

If u want a tight peg go with bitusd and other bitassets.

Having sbd removed imo is the worst idea there is. Simply because if u have steem backed dollars...EVERYONE knows what dollars are and that this association in and of itself is a huge marketing and mass acceptance bonus.

Simply because if u have steem backed dollars...EVERYONE knows what dollars are and that this association in and of itself is a huge marketing and mass acceptance bonus.

I've used to think this way. But not anymore, because I just don't see any evidence of this. It hurts the marketing by attracting low quality users and causes suspicions on potentially great users.

I see no evidence of what u say. :/

But i still love u :]

Indeed. It makes sense that an author's worth will be evaluated both by their ability and long term investment. Steem Power does exactly that. I also think that there should be a choice (perhaps a mini exchange widget within the wallet widget) where the user turns their Steem into SDB.

You may be right that we don't need the SBDs.

However, I don't think there is a need to ditch SBDs if the only reason is to display the rewards in STEEM.

I think that changing the display of rewards to STEEMs may be done now, without the need to ditch SBDs at the same time..

Displaying in dollars is a better way of fulfilling Steem's mission, which is to get every day people onboard and using a blockchain. Grandma doesn't care what STEEM is and has no association with it being anything of value. $ = dollar, money, value, etc.

I don't think so. Displaying dollar can be misunderstood, as I suggested here:

A large portion of socio-psychological hardship in Steemit has come from reward distribution. People sometimes compare much smaller payouts than the bright past in July when trending posts easily got over $1000 (SBD). However, as matter of a fact, rewards in STEEM has not changed muchand what has changed is STEEM price denominated in SBD.

STEEM is a share of Steem blockchain, and can be considered as a reward point in Steem ecosystem, like Karma of Reddit or Marking of Poloniex. If we can make people to think the reward as a perk, at the same time make them free from money value, Steemit would be more enjoyable and less stressful.

Thanks for linking this, I had forgotten it.

Yes. I like seeing dollar Signs!

Sure. I am not saying that we SHOULD ditch the SBD.

What I am saying is that there are two separate issues.

IF we were to ditch the SBDs, the display for reward

$190.48

could be changed to:

191.03 STEEM ~ $190.48

In fact we could do that now.

In all honesty I don't think Grandma is ever getting on this site. I have to explain from letter A what Bitcoin is to multiple people a day. I am SHOCKED to see how many people have never even heard the word. Circling back to Steem, the difference between Steem, SP, and SBD is highly confusing at the start and I've helped build a few websites. Grandma has no chance. I think I change to showing Steem for value would actually be an improvement. We can only hope Bitcoin continues to have market penetration to pique individuals interest in dipping a toe in other crypto or platforms.

There are multiple grandparents on this site. :) Some of them have not touched anything regarding smart money /cryptocurrency until getting their Steem account.

:) You know what I meant. But in regards to your last point...fair enough.

I'm one of them also.

I was just reading up on witnesses. I saw that you are one. Any guidance on getting in the mix? I would love a Layman's Term link or quick message about what I would need. I'm 4 days in but I plan on continuing to be more and more involved. This possibly could be out of my level of expertise/time commitment. I am completely fine with "its a lot more involved than it looks" comment. I will have to find other avenues to get more involved. Thanks

I disagree with this. By focusing on making money we are getting lots of low quality users. People who just want to get rich quick and do not care about the platform itself or the community. They will leave when they see their rewards going down, just like what has happened.

I think it has been really bad move marketing-wise.

We can't have majority of the people, like grandmas, until we have enough early adopters. To get more early adopters we need to have high-quality community.

Focusing on rewards that have value is focusing on the major selling point of Steem for now. The reality is that other websites have Steem beat on UI and network effect. This can change with better UI and more users down the road but this is the territory we are in. To hide away Steem's killer feature for adopting new users that have no experience with decentralized smart money platforms would be a mistake.

I'm mostly repeating myself here. I've made these arguments before in my comments when this was first given a serious discussion. https://steemit.com/ned/@krnel/ned-on-sbd-does-the-community-want-to-continue-to-be-paid-out-in-steem-dollars

I'm very well aware of those arguments, I've used them also in the past. But I think it's time to admit that we are not seeing any merchants adopting SBD as a currency. There is no other use besides cryptocurrency speculation and that's not a core business of Steem.

Focusing on rewards that have value is focusing on the major selling point of Steem for now.

And what I'm saying is that it shouldn't be. Users who come because of money are too low quality to be good early adopters.

  • They have very little loyalty, they will leave very soon when their earnings start to drop.
  • They are not helping with the network effect because they do not make the system viral by recommending it to their friends (exept maybe for other low quality users).

Focusing on money has caused some bad publicity and made good people suspicious about the platform. For example: Andreas Antonopoulos and Publicism.

Even if we change the display currency, the problem will still exist if users are paid with SBD.

Hm... Guys. If there is choice between @timcliff's proposal of fixing the SBD peg by making it more complex and removing SBD interely, then I'll choose get rid of SBD, instead of adding additional risks for platform.

Luckily, we don't have to choose, so let it be the status quo.

It's a proof that the pegging mechanism doesn't work.

because we didn't had any mechanism for pushing price down. We just need to add what timcliff proposed, and thats it.

Market demand trumped price controls. What a surprise. But that demand bubble is tapering off rapidly. I do like the volatility mitigation concept even if it doesn't entirely work as planned.

The pegging mechanism should work in different situations, including the one we are in now. Of course nothing can guarantee a perfect peg but if the price is seriously off for more than 24 hours, the system is broken.

So there has been huge demand for our derivative token in recent months, but it's a problem because of a display issue which we could easily fix on the front end?

The extra purchasing power of the SBD is more a benefit than a problem. The display and perception problems can be tackled on the front end before you eliminate one of the central premises of the system. The high price is evidence of high demand for the product. It would be shooting ourselves in the foot to eliminate a high demand token from the system.

The high price is evidence of high demand for the product.

Quite right.

So there has been huge demand for our derivative token in recent months, but it's a problem because of a display issue which we could easily fix on the front end?

These are two different problems that could be fixed by removing the SBD. I generally support simple solutions that affect more than one problem.

The extra purchasing power of the SBD is more a benefit than a problem.

I agree that the brokeness of SBD hasn't been catastrophic (so far), but it's still a problem. If there is no price stability, SBD won't ever going to be used in commercial markets. It will stay only in the hands of cryptocurrency speculators.

And our users would have benefited more if they were paid with steem instead of SBD. With SBD they made only modest profits, with steem they would have multiplied the value of their earnings.

The high price is evidence of high demand for the product.

Yeah, there is high demand. But doesn't mean we should be serving that market. By keeping the system simple we can focus on the most important things. It's a common mistake for startups to focus too much for anything that seems to get some traction and forget the fundamentals of their business. The derivate markets are not and shouldn't be a focus of Steem.

I don't think the dollar amount shown on a post does any favours for steemit as a serious blogging site, I would rather a more discreet value indicator.

SBD is doing just fine.
So far I've made quit a bit of money just trading on the difference between it and steem
it's not broke...so don't fix it.