It's a great question Sam, and it needs to be dragged out of the shadows for an indepth and honest discussion. At least 12000, 28000, 30000 years old. Says who? And based on what evidence? What methodology was used to nail down those dates? Carbon dating is only accurate to about 5000 years back in time. I should actually do a post about that. Dude, I like the subjects you bring up.