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RE: Got Jesus?
So tell me about yourself then. I’m Obviously Christian Born Again and if you’ve read any of my other recent writing I’m a recent convert to Libertarianism except where God is concerned. What about you?
I was raised Catholic mostly, semi Protestant. Never really fit in with either. Libertarian-ish bordering on anarchist. I'm sure that's how I found your blog, but I can't remember specifically.
As for faith, I'm not sure where I stand right now. I'm having a hard time with faith because I don't actually see anyone that lives like Christ said His disciples would live, and I'm in the buckle of the Bible belt. Everyone I encounter on the Internet claiming to be Christian focuses all their time tearing other people down, and threatening people with torture, something I don't see Jesus doing in the Bible. I also don't see any evidence of the Apostles threatening people with torture if they don't convert in the New Testament.
It's a problem, because if people are claiming to be Christian, but they don't act like it, then by Jesus' own standard they aren't. It doesn't matter if they said some magic words, even if they meant it. Where is that in the Bible, anyway?
If there aren't any real followers of Jesus, and I can't find them, then how can a person know there is anything there? Jesus taught a lot of things in His life, almost none of which are ever talked about in churches, blogged about on Christian blogs, or discussed in Christian forums.
I also think that there is a misplaced emphasis on God as angry, vengeful, and wrathful. Jesus didn't talk about God like that. The main metaphor He used was God as a Father, but when you point out to "Christians" that a father would never act the way they say God does they just explain it away like it's of no import. Like you just did. How is the metaphor meaningful at all? In what way is God like a father if He intends to torture most of humanity for eternity? How does that square with the father in the parable of the prodigal son?
I think it doesn't at all. I think that the God who tortures is not a good God, and not worthy of praise. If that's God, then I think there is no God at all, and Jesus was just some crazy preacher who managed to pull off one of history's greatest tricks.
You really should look into what the bible teaches about the immortality of the soul. You say it's obvious, but it's NOT in the Bible. There are a couple of verses in Revelation, which everyone knows is not literal because the whole thing is a retelling of a prophetic vision, and you have a parable Jesus told, which is at least arguably not literal. The vast majority of scripture teaches the exact opposite, hundreds of times.
Just two: John 3:16, Romans 6:23. Both clearly say that eternal life is a gift of God, and both indicate not everyone receives the gift.
If God doesn’t allow us to be punished for committing crimes against our neighbors and against him, he would not be a Just God. If he didn’t provide a savior he wouldn’t be a merciful God. If he didn’t give us a choice we wouldn’t even be sentient.
I use to struggle with the same issues of hypocrites until I realized I will always be a sinner and so will they. How we act after being saved will be punished in this life if bad or glorified higher in heaven for charity; but all who accept his gift will be saved.
You’re still questioning the need to be saved at all? The Bible says that no man ever can fullfill the requirements of the old law. He instituted the new law of faith. Christ’s gift is the only way back to God.
Accepting the Holy Spirit into my life has been a huge blessing And now I want to do for him the things I felt forced to do before when struggling with Hypocrites. The spirit guides me now, whereas Before, I was often second guessing myself. Now I live by the spirit and look for confirmation of Epiphanies that come more often now as I grow in understanding of our purpose and mission in this life. To Love God and our Neighbors. How we do that is a personal matter but we cannot work our way into heaven without believing in him and the sacrifice he made for us. But we can gain the rewards in heaven that living a charitable life will bring us.
I feel like I'm talking to myself from five years ago.... I guess that's why I feel a little triggered right now. The whole "being led by the Holy Spirit" idea sounds nice, but when different "christians" feel led by the HS to preach contradictory narratives it becomes hard to reconcile. Who is correct? What way of reading the bible is correct? If the HS doesn't answer when you ask for guidance, what do you do then?
Another problem is that people, and you and I seem to be them, often say, "the bible says..." and then follow with their own interpretation of what the bible says. It isn't so clear what you say about the commandments, and that should be evident by the huge numbers of "Christians" who read the same bible as you and say "the bible says..." followed by "we must obey the Law of God." Really, it's not hard to find.
I understand that the church is full of people, and that people are imperfect, but that shouldn't preclude the church from being loving towards each other, if not towards everyone. Jesus said that His followers would be know by their love... Who in the world describes Christians as loving? If you stand from the outside and look objectively, it seems to me that Christians are only loving towards people who share their exact same beliefs, and when there is a disagreement the hate comes out pretty quick.
For the record, I "accepted the Holy Spirit in my life" over thirty years ago, and there have been good times and bad since. Looking back, I can't really distinguish the things I thought were from the HS from things that other people worked out just fine without Him. It doesn't seem to me that "Christians" are especially blessed any more than non-christians. It doesn't seem to effect their behavior all that much, and it doesn't seem to free them from sin.
You say I question the need to be saved at all? No, you mistake me. I'm question the power of your religion to save. I thought for years it did. Argued vociferously that it did, even very recently. If asked about it, I'd probably still give the party line, but I have some real doubts. Mostly, I fail to see the power, love, grace, or mercy the Bible says is there.
As for punishment, I understand it's hard to let go of the desire for a pound of flesh. It makes us feel good to know the "bad" people are going to get what they have coming. But how is death not a punishment? Isn't death the exact punishment promised all throughout the Bible, from Genesis through Revelation? Isn't death what Jesus said will happen to those who don't believe in Him? Didn't Paul say the "wages of sin is Death?" Why this need for eternal torture? Is it just?
If we are made in the image of God, and I think the bible is pretty clear on that, then shouldn't we expect our sense of justice to derive from Him? I've heard that exact argument used by countless Christian apologists to "prove" His existence, yet when it comes to Justice we somehow think it's okay for God to behave in ways that we would consider completely unjust if a person were to do it.
If someone is guilty of murder, what is a just punishment? Is fifty years in a torture chamber good enough? I think that's barbaric, and so do most people. Death is the punishment God prescribed for the Israelites who took a life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life. It seems pretty clear that God is instructing them on Justice. Why didn't He tell them to torture the murderer for some time before execution?
Now, you have God not only executing the sinner, but then He resurrect them for the sole purpose of torturing them endlessly. How is that just? Where in the Bible is that idea? I guess you can get it from Revelation, when Satan and his minions are cast into the lake of fire to be tormented forever, but at best you have the worst of the worst suffering endlessly. Your explanation of Hell puts people there for eternal torture who lived their entire life in a place where the gospel was never preached. Or people who were so harmed by "Christians" that they were unable to respond to the gospel. Or people who just never gave religion or God much thought, but were otherwise decent people.
Do people deserve death for stealing? How about lying? Or coveting? Do people deserve to be tortured forever for the same? Think about that for a while... Why would you say it is Just for God to behave that way when it wouldn't be just for one of us to?
To me, this is one of the problems with the whole ball of wax. How is it that "Christians" are loving if most of them openly hold out hope that most of the people in the world will be tortured forever? If they truly believed that, what in the world is more important than trying to stop it from happening? I mean, seriously, why wast time on a blog, job, skiing, or reading a book? Someone might suffer eternal torture because of your tendency to procrastinate... Either Christians don't really believe it, or they aren't loving. If they aren't loving, according to Jesus they aren't His followers.
You say you're Libertarian, can I ask why? I'd like to know, but for now here's why I am. I don't think it is morally acceptable to force people to act the way you want them to, either directly or through coercion. In fact, it was through reading the gospels that I came to that conclusion because it seems to me that Jesus refused to use coercion or violence even when people were ready to make Him king. He didn't act like that because it was wrong. It is still wrong. Why would you think God would act like that?
Thank you for the discussion and FYI I have thought about pretty much everything you’ve mentioned and have had the same reservations.
We all don’t and probably can’t have the Same love for our unsaved neighbors as Jesus during his ministry did. But I’m forgiven for that. I think Paul wrote a few letters calling some of the churches out for not being as proactive about spreading the gospel as they should have been. It’s important to spread the love not the hate. All the reasons you mentioned kept me away from Christ.
I’ve come to Christ because of the prophesies in revelations; suddenly seeing the possibility of the impossibly impossible act of shutting down all commerce without taking in the Mark of the beast. We are standing on the precipice watching crypto currencies and RFID about to end all commerce in cash taking the prophesies out of the realm of fantasy into possibility and probability.
The diety of Christ is clear to me now, the abhorrent results of crime and punishment, and for people who have never heard of Christianity; I have hope / faith that God is both Just and merciful and everyone will get the appropriate reward or punishment at judgement day.
This blog entry is aimed at showing a macro look at biblical history. Clearly showing a pattern that he’s not a respector of persons destroying everyone whose ability to choose was completely prevented by their society falling away. In that sense many people who may not have ever heard of The True God were killed.
And the truth of the biblical prophesies in revelation? Look at current events. It’s scary as hell.
My application of moral judgements against God are pointless. He’s God I’m not, and shits about to hit the fan. It’s time for everyone to get right with God not the other way around.
https://steemit.com/israel/@adconner/the-temple-mount-and-raising-the-antichrist
I am a libertarian because I believe in absolute morality. Respect for other people’s lives, property and treasure without exception.
God is too. He’s given us a choice. Him or hell. But again hell isnt the punishment it’s the result of justice. Is it too much or too little? I have faith in God’s mercy.
Well, I don't feel like you've thought through your position very well. What is punishment? What is justice? Is there a point to the never ending torture? Does sin ever actually get dealt with?
Discipline is something that is meant to encourage growth, punishment is punitive. I don't see how you could possibly say that God has respect for people's lives if you think He will keep them alive forever for the sole purpose of torturing them... Honestly, that baffles me. Most "Christians" will at least try to explain how it is just in some sense, but you don't seem inclined to even ponder it.
If you believe in absolute morality, then is torture wrong? If so, why?
You say God gave us a choice, heaven or hell... Is that in the Bible? Where? Every verse I can find says the choice is life or death.
john 3:16, Romans 6:20-23, Deut 30:19, John 10:10, 2 Peter 3:9, Ezek 18:4, 2 Thes 1:8-9, Gen 2:17, Deut 4:1, Jer 21:8, prov 11:19, Matt 25:46, Romans 5:12, James 1:5, psalm 1:6, 9:5, 11:6, This could take all day...
God doesn’t have respect for people’s lives. He’s not a respector of persons if I ever said he was, was missing the word ‘Not’.
Jesus Christ is not a respecter of persons. He came to save souls not lives. He came to satisfy the law of justice. To be the last sacrifice as payment for our sins.
Discipline will be handed out in this life to his faithful. (Hebrews 12:6-7)
God is not going to torture anyone. This situation we put ourselves into. Analogy: you are about to fall into a volcano which won’t kill you. It will torture you for eternity but Jesus offers you his hand to pull you to safety but you refuse his hand because your principles tell you the whole paradigm is flawed.
As far as people who never heard of the one True God? We need to bring them the gospel. But died in the past never having had a choice? The blame is their ancestors not theirs and I have faith in God’s mercy to do the right thing.
I’ll read those scriptures you suggested. Thanks.
Wow! This is enlightening. Do you really mean to say that God doesn't respect human life? Is that based off Acts 10:34? Because, if so I think you are taking that entirely out of context. The actual context is Peter explaining how God values all human life equally. The KJV is old English, and people don't talk that way anymore. Modern versions read:
NIV: Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism
ESV: So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
NASB: Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
If you really don't think God respects human life, then why the commandment forbidding murder? What's the big deal?
And Jesus... Really? Do you actually rip the middle part of the gospels out of your bible? What about what He said?
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Never mind that Jesus' number one message was the "Kingdom of God" which He said was "at hand" and "upon you." Why did He even preach the sermon on the mount? It would be easier to get people to heaven if people went around forcing conversions, then killing the converted. There's no reason to keep them alive, right? Why try to stop abortion? The babies are probably going to heaven, right? So why not fill the place with babies?
How can you say with a straight face that your conception of Hell isn't God torturing people? Your analogy sucks because people don't live forever, unless God decides that they will. It says that in the bible a whole bunch, so I guess take that up with God. Jesus Himself said that God had the power to destroy the soul:
Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Nevermind for now that the verse clearly teaches that the soul is destroyed in hell, but think for a second... If God can destroy the soul, but chooses not to so that a person can be in eternal torment... How is God not torturing them? That makes no sense at all...
Let's re-frame your analogy. It seems to me it's more like this: you are about to fall into a hole that leads to a torture chamber. I tell you to take my hand so that you don't fall into the torture chamber, but you don't believe me. You fall, and I torture you.
I'm glad you can somehow have faith that God will be merciful considering your conception of Him. Keep that thread alive. Just FYI, if the Bible doesn't teach what you are saying that it does, you really ought to reconsider your position.
The History of God destroying whole civilizations from time to time shows his level of respect for human lives. Does it not?
Any more comments on faith confirmed?
Copied from my blog entry on repentance.
Refer to Hebrews 12:4-12 concerning believers being scourged and our faith proven by going through the pain and tribulations in this life that sin causes.
People who think they can be saved by living perfect lives will never understand this and never believe it and maybe never experience any tribulations and in the end will go to hell for lack of faith and for the sins they thought weren’t thaaaat bad.
In closing, constantly pleading for forgiveness means you have no faith in him or his gift. His gift is contingent solely on our faith and fealty. Faith frees us from sin - it’s true Freedom.
First Believe in Christ then Worry about being scourged for your sins in this life, not whether your apologies are good enough; they aren’t and aren’t necessary.
I feel like this reply should have been directed to the other commentator. I'm not arguing salvation by works. I'm discussing the justice of Eternal torture, and the nature of God.
However, I would like to ask you what your definition of faith is, in your own words. I feel like you have a different understanding of it than I do.
Also, you seem to want to cut out the sections of the Gospels that deal with all that Jesus said and did during His ministry. Would it have been sufficient for Him to be born, go straight to the cross, resurrection, then ascension without any of the teachings?
Definition of faith? Hope confirmed by the spirit and random moments in my life that happen and confirm something new that I’ve recently learned.
Point me to the things I’ve cut out of the Gospels that you think i need to learn or be reminded of. Thanks in Advance.
I don't know if I'd say you left anything out of the gospel. I didn't see this post as a presentation of the gospel... Was it? If so, I'd say you left out all the stuff Jesus and Paul said about the Kingdom, which was Jesus' number one message. I'd also say that nobody in the bible ever preached the gospel you just did, which is basically a watered down version of "sinners in the hands of an angry God," a gospel of coercion. Obey or be tortured forever...
Thanks for your definition of faith. It really does put some of this discussion into context for me. So we're on a level playing field, I think faith is trusting enough to act in spite of doubt. It seems to me that you're operating on a faith that is mostly evidence based, or built on surety, where I view faith as having doubt, but believing Jesus enough to trust Him and do what He said. For me, without actually doing anything that He said you can't have faith.
For an example, you can believe that your wife would never cheat on you, but it's not faith until you trust her in difficult situations. Or, you can believe the bungee chord will not break, but it's not faith until you jump.
I have faith first make the leap and if it’s correctly placed it’s confirmed by random circumstance.
My faith in The fidelity of my wife is confirmed by passing the difficult situations. My faith is confirmed by the chord not breaking.
Faith should always be confirmed. Preach what you learned and God will confirm but if I teach lies I’ll be disciplined. So please let me know if I’ve presented any falsehoods I will pray on the matter.
You do have a point about the Angry God Sermon. This blog entry needed a better intro. This conversation has resulted in adding an intro.
Thanks!
I think the intro is a good addition. I still think you have a pretty nasty view of God, but at least you're upfront about it.
I'd still like to hear you answer the question how it's not torture if God is the one keeping the souls alive forever in Hell. I think we both agree that life is a gift of God, right? And that life only continues because God wills it? (Again, from Hebrews 1 among other verses)
It’s based on my belief the soul is eternal and the second death doesn’t result in the actual extinction of the accumulated intelligence of the soul. Is he keeping the intelligence alive to be tortured? No. It’s dead in the sense of being exiled from God but still aware of their fates.
It sounds like you’re suggesting God will euthanize those souls who don’t commit to him? If so, any scripture on that?