Steem related apps with YOUR POSTING KEY, and beneficiary percentages. What you need to know.
This is a personal decision each user must make. Miscommunication or misrepresentation needs to be kept to a minimum with clarity and transparent intentions.
First and foremost, I need to state how I feel about this issue, prior to writing this article, so you can understand my bias simply because I've thought about how I feel about this issue.
- I believe if I entrust my posting key to anything, I better know all about the app or website before I provide it. That's just common sense. I don't cut/paste my posting key anywhere and then find out where it went, or how it is used.
Most people would agree with that... if an app or website asks you for your posting key, you don't just blindly put it in without knowing who they are, what they are, and why they want it.
Now, I'm currently a fan of a cool app named eSteem (found at eSteem.ws) because it's a well designed app that is feature rich and helps bring the Steem blockchain to your phone.
I'm also learning about a new ChainBB system called eostalk.io which appears to be a traditional "forum" format... (much like SMF, or phpbb, or discourse) centered around the new EOS system that Dan Larimer is building.
Both are useful and can do neat things...
However, I admit, I only learned about beneficiary features of steem-related apps in the last 24 hours.
What is a beneficiary feature you ask?
https://steemit.com/howto/@abit/hard-fork-18-how-to-use-author-reward-splitting-feature
It was brought in by hardfork 18. Most people read about hardfork 19 because it impacted rewards so much. What happened with hardfork 18 though?
Read that link well written by @abit - it explains it. Then come back here and finish reading. No sense repeating it.
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-> Did you read the @abit article? https://steemit.com/howto/@abit/hard-fork-18-how-to-use-author-reward-splitting-feature
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Good. I'll assume you did, and now what I write will make more sense to you.
So basically an app using your posting key, can transmit your content for you to the steem blockchain.
Quote from @good-karma: "No one has access to the posting key but user, just like on Steemit transactions are generated locally and broadcasted to the network!"
What a lot of people may not realize, is that the rewards that posting key may generate for the posting user, can be divided and shared with the app developer as well.
eSteem for instance, originally set it at 1% for the app, and 99% went to the user. It was then bumped up to 5% for the app, and 95% for the posting user.
chainbb forum, much like eostalk.io uses, is 15% for the app, and 85% to the posting user.
It appears @l0k1 aka @elfspice sees the author of eSteem app this way:
Quote: "You are a liar, like the rest of them, hoping that nobody will look closely enough to figure out the racket this whole thing is. But I'm not just gonna run away. I'm gonna dig up such fantastically comprehensive dirt on all of you."
WHOA!!
What's going on?
@L0k1 aka @elfspice (from my understanding and what I've read) is especially concerned about these two points:
- The user may be forfeiting a portion of their due author reward without realizing it
- The portion of the reward that was forfeited to the app user could be used for things like upvoting witnesses or other posts, etc.. which could be used in a way the user may disagree with if asked.
I understand the concern, and while I wouldn't come out of the box and call people "liars"....
I think it is instead important to educate users on how their posting keys and rewards may be used.
If you trust the app, and you like the developer of the app, you may not even care how they use that 5% or 15% of any rewards your posting key earned while using the app.
If you trust the app, but not the developer of the app, you probably shouldn't use the app in the first place.
If you innocently use an app, without knowing how rewards from your posting key is split. Then that's a problem too.
NEVER HAND YOUR POSTING KEY OVER unless you know what you are doing, or how it will be used.
With that being said, I personally trust eSteem and eostalk.io, but that is a decision I have made for me.
You must decide on your own if you want to do it yourself.
@good-karma was pretty upfront when he commented to @elfspice and said:
QUOTED FROM @good-karma, developer of eSteem.ws
Anyone can check stats about apps here: https://steemdb.com/apps
Many apps have beneficiary feature implemented and at the stage of figuring out if it is sustainable and viable model for the further development of project... Note that apps are in constant development stage and not all of them had incorporated/documented it
So there you have it.... naturally this is going to be a very controversial topic, and it should be...
...as more and more websites, mobile apps, and things like this pop up that REQUIRE a posting key.... you have to consider if you will use them, and if so, if you trust they aren't using the portion of the earned rewards to do unethical things with it.
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I wish I could thank @l0k1 aka @elfspice for bringing this to people's attention...
However the name-calling and abusive accusatory language and threatening is not a style of communication I appreciate. I suppose I'll be the next "liar" and "just like the rest of them too" that has now earned my spot on his hit list. I hope not. But if I know his personality, I will be.
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C'est la vie. This community in-fighting really needs to stop. Once it does, this will be a more friendly place.
Small correction: 95% of the rewards goes to user and 5% is allocated to the further development and expenses of the project. 5% is also used for give back rewards to users with #esteem-spotlight and many various programs like encouragement and feedback loop etc.
Also to note: No one has access to the posting key but user, just like on Steemit transactions are generated locally and broadcasted to the network!
Fixed the correction. Thank you for commenting. I know your app never actually transmits the posting key anywhere. It stays on the user phone. Just the transaction gets sent with the posted content from that user.
Thank you brother! I will make eSteem FAQ post asap to address some of the concerns
Excellent. :)
I've made some additional corrections about the posting key on my post. [updated]. Please look again. I also quoted this: " No one has access to the posting key but user, just like on Steemit transactions are generated locally and broadcasted to the network!"
Just to clarify that I also further clarified after my quoted post, that the application constitutes an expression of speech, and the omission of explicit consent, is fraud. Lies by omission. No matter how well intentioned, and as I have been informed, this arrangement is to my detriment as my accounts are too big to qualify for the reward posts.
So I stand by what I said, and I laugh at the flag that was pinned to it, especially after I already qualified this.
Beneficiaries are a great idea, and I see many potential applications for them. However, I will drop a meme in here to express my frustration with Steemit, Inc., whose 'omissions' and lack of followthrough on everything (this means you @ned after your skype chat with me 13 months ago, and still no action on the subject of that conversation):
Also, since I know very well the architecture of these node.js based applications, which includes almost every interface to the steem blockchain, they all depend on a security model in which, mostly using steem.js, the keys are not ever sent over the wire, but used by the app locally to sign transactions before sending them through a websocket. It is good of you to explain this. The security model puts all these sites and apps square above even Gooogle for protection against wiresniffing attacks (such as malwares altering firewalls to catch the cleartext before the SSL tunnel, modified hosts files, etc).
Also, the steem blockchain has better protection against elliptic curve signature malleability, which can be used for replay attacks on bitcoin and others, though I have not personally read of documented cases of this - I recall reading a post by Dan about how the algorithm in Steem works.
I've upvoted this comment.
According to downvote rules that pop up:
Hate speech or internet trolling
So the downvote flag appeared to have been appropriate in that particular instance on your @elfspice comment which threatened @good-karma
I want to thank you for your comment this time around.. as you can see you can still make your viewpoint heard without attracting downvotes.
As far as your chat with @ned, I can't comment on it. Perhaps you might try again, I don't know. Either way, that's a completely different topic than the subject matter of this post we're talking about.
Either way, I think the HF18 beneficiary feature is now well explained, and I thank you for your attempt to bring light to the issue (even if I disagreed with your original method).
Alas, here's where I move on and let my opinions on the issue rest.
(I really don't want to talk about this anymore. If you like I leave the last word to you.)
Exposure is not threatening, though of course it can be a psychological warfare tactic. If you got dirt, that's not my responsibility, is it. There is a difference between trolling someone and simply trying to use their own publicly visible record as a means to rectify their behaviour.
I don't care to deface any of my electronic devices with @ned's animated visage. I think the record speaks for itself on his leadership skills and moral fibre.
That's fine if you don't wish to engage on any of these topics anymore, I do not hold my position out of malice, but only moral indignity, and as a voluntaryist, I have no say in what you want to do.
Thanks for being a good sport.
heya. beneficiaries are implemented......!
poke
I respect human dignity and I aim only to provoke the rectification of errors. I will skirt as close as I can to the line between reasonable and invective, and try to keep it on the good side. Ones harshest critics can be one's greatest allies, you know what I mean?
@ned,,, nice to meet you
please follow back, and often come in my blog :D
I've often thought the beneficiary features were a tricky proposition. I mean, how many people would knowingly be willing to give away up to 15% of their post awards. I had also brought that up a week or two ago in a discussion, and someone mentioned that on chainbb, those fees are slightly mitigated by the fact that for now @jesta upvotes each post made via chainBB.
Link: Running my own curation trail experiment to promote chainBB testing/feedback
Of course, while that may average out nicely to offset payout reductions on some posts, for an extreme example, let's say your post hits $1000. The thought of giving up $150 of that for posting somewhere other than on STEEMIT.com may leave at least a few people with a slightly sour taste in their stomachs.
As a possible solution, in an upcoming hardfork a feature could be added that would enable developers to optionally set a "maximum shared value" per post (ie. 15% up to $1 post payout).
Hey! I didn't know that :) Thanks for that tidbit..
An alternative means of monetisation would be a subscription based model, or an upfront payment. Would large earners be able to pay a monthly subscription or buy a lifetime membership in lieu of sharing post rewards? I don't know if this could be coded in or not. In any case, for the average user (I think I would fall there), I think the beneficiary model is a much preferred way to reward to app producer than an upfront purchase or pesky in-app advertisements.
if it's a "modest" fee (subjective to each person), perhaps. but once again, the problem I see with that approach is that there's no direct correlation between the success of a post and using an alternative platform. If one could be established somehow, that may be a different story.
Otherwise, how would it be any different than charging someone $100 for milk at the grocery store cuz "he's rich", versus everyone else who pays $2.50 or so. At that point, he might as well just buy his own cow!
And that's exactly what could happen here as well, especially since all the projects are generally opensource anyway.
I see where you are coming from (I have a pet hate for percentage-based fees of funds under management for financial advisors that are not tied to performance or value added).
If the platform has added value to the post (I find eSteem to be easier to use to post photos from my phone), I am happy for it to share rewards (which for me are generally minimal). I see it more like "tithing" some of my income back into the system. The bitshares ecosystem (originator of the graphene platform on which the Steem blockchain operates) I believe was built on a social contract of giving back +5% to holders of bitshares in acknowledgement of use of its technology (PeerPlays recently honoured this by sharedropping 5% of its token among bitshares holders, for example).
So, I think it is a bit different to your milk example in that it is not the wealth of the user, but the production of posts using its technology that is taxed/shared. Would a better example be a landowner allowing a farmer to graze his cow on his land in return for 5% of the milk produced?
It is all voluntary, however, as you say, and there is nothing stopping using competing platforms that may be cheaper or free.
but you see, you just negated you own point, why pay the landowner, if you can graze somewhere else for free?
HOWEVER, if the landowners's grass leads to a 10%+ boost in milk yield and more baby cows to boot, well, that's a whole other story entirely! :)
Hey there , today many people have issues with posting . I think this is a good way for new users to keep the voting power above some level and prevent the limitation of postings and comment !
Agreed. eSteem app has brought more new users to steemit than any other mobile app. The good work @good-karma does shouldn't be clouded by this issue. :(
I undarstand and admit what @good-karma have dan , just this is one of the positive sides of using the app :)
Recently @justaboutart entered a drawing contest where she received the most votes but because she posted with esteem which apparently gave her an unfair advantage. Can anyone explain this to me?
It's better to ask on the drawing cost blog, not here. Or you can email info@esteem.ws about it and provide proof
please vote
VOTE
I never knew that there is cut for these aps, the 5% seems a bit big tho. But thanks for this.
Yeah - eSteem with @god-karma at the wheel is about the only app that I trust with my posting key.
Thanks for raising awareness.
-ch @globocop
oops typo in the name of your comment
Hay @intelliguy I am one of your followers recently you vote negative vote on my post I only appriciate my followers on my comments post so please stop down voting and remove your downvote i also get it what you said i appriciate if you understand @funnystuff