Penny responds; response to; Gender Identity, Gender Expression, Gender Roles, and Sex: The circular logic that keep the public spinning in the midst of the transgender movement.

This is my response to the title mentioned in my title, an article by: @radicalmothering



I am gender critical. This is not news to most people. The reason I am gender critical is not because I hate trans people. I am not irrationally afraid of them. I don’t think they are a work of fiction. I am gender critical because words mean things and truth matters. Separating a word from the thing it defines makes us unable to communicate effectively. Effective communication in the area of civil and human rights is vital.

I am not 100% sure what gender critical means, the functional definition seems to be in contrast to the average use in terf circles. I’m going to assume it’s a nebulous way of saying your less than stoked about Tran’s people.
If you’re not afraid of or disbelieving of Tran’s people than why not just leave us alone? You don’t need to cheer us just step back and let us live our life ya know? I’m willing to do the same with Cis people.
I agree that words mean things and truth matters. Expanding our knowledge and thereby the vocabulary defining that knowledge is an ever increasing process as we learn more and more about the world around us. This is not a breakdown in communication it’s a lack of education on a certain subject.

I pulled this from my own archives today and want to expand on it here. I also need something to publish while I am working on four other topics right now. I wrote the original post on Facebook a year ago. It’s an important conversation, I think, because of how gender critical people are so often told to “get educated,” or “there is a difference between sex, gender identity, gender roles, and gender expression.”

I’m glad you shared. Looking forward to some expansion. Sounds like your super busy, hope you had time to do some research on this topic. Facebook sucks, long live steemit! Allot can happen in a year. Oh good, someone told you that already.
I want to address the logical fallacy of this rhetoric. It’s all quite circular and inconsistent, and the goal posts get moved almost daily. I would like to lay out some definitions first, however, so that we are all on the same page. I will use the verbiage for Gender Roles (GR) Gender Identity (GI) Gender Expression (GE) as provided by trans activism. I will use the definition of sex as provided by biological science.
Fallacies are common errors in reasoning that will undermine the logic of your argument. Fallacies can be either illegitimate arguments or irrelevant points, and are often identified because they lack evidence that supports their claim.

** Definition of RHETORIC
1: the art of speaking or writing effectively: such as
a : the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times
b : the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion
2a : skill in the effective use of speech
b : a type or mode of language or speech; also : insincere or grandiloquent language
3: verbal communication : DISCOURSE **

So those are the definitions of logical fallacy and rhetoric, just to keep us all on the same page. You are using some very rhetoric orientated language in this paragraph to reassure the reader of where you stand and to begin the establishment of a straw man argument. It’s the only reason one employs this form of early degradation in an argument. Plato was fond of using Socrates as an example of this style of arguing, in fact in his appeal to the court an inverse method of this type of opening was used, not to set up a straw man but to un-prep the court in a way. Its somewhat sloppy to use it like this but kudos for the argument style regardless. Ok I accept your abbreviations.

In asking trans activists what GR, GI, and GE are, we are told:
GR are the societal expectations of people based on their biological sex.
GI it is an individual’s innate (internal) sense of their biological sex, which is contradictory to their classified biological sex.
GE is how one manifests outwardly via clothing, hair style, facial grooming, etc. their GI.

Why we got to be Trans activists, I’m just a person trying to stay alive, why is it always about activism. I am active, not an activist.
So I do have a slight problem with your definitions. I will clarify my understanding here
GR
The role or behavior learned by a person as appropriate to their gender, determined by the prevailing cultural norms.

GI
A person's perception of having a particular gender, which may or may not correspond with their birth sex.
GE
The way in which a person expresses their gender identity, typically through their appearance, dress, and behavior.

The “Gender Unicorn” is used to describe these different components to Gender Theory. Note that in the Gender Identity (feelings) category, Female and Male, which are biological sex classifications, are listed. The “Gender Unicorn” replaced the “Genderbread Person” because of outcry that the person looked too male…. I’ll let you think about that for a moment. Do also note that the “Genderbread Person” did not claim that male and female were feelings and held in the brain. Goal posts.

First, I think it Hilarious that you believe these quick reference learning charts are the end all in these studies. These are middle school level tools for the twelve second blurb dedicated to gender before collage. The reworking of said chart was not exclusionary and certainly was not changed due to the male nature of the original. As with all things there is a drafting period when looking for good was to inform. Evolution is not disinformation or conspiracy. Some classes still use the gingerbread model. But it’s a convenient way for you to further sow the seeds of trans individuals being silly and uninformed. Its not the truth, which we both established is important to us. There was no goal post moved. Any investigation past a confirmation biased glance would show the levels of in-depth research that went into that particular chart. Again, building that straw man.
Sex is the biological classification of male and female. Trans activists would have you believe this is an arbitrary “assignment,” that one may mistake a penis for male, and a vulva and vagina for female, because “oops!” As a result, you will see them label it as “assigned (m/f) at birth.” (Which really makes me wonder: How do other mammals in the animal kingdom figure out which animals are the ones to carry their offspring to breathing life? Do they arbitrarily copulate and cross their toes and hope they did it right? Or is it something else… the world may never know…)
Now that we have some definitions, let’s press further on the question of these differences.

Sex
Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
Is the relevant definition of the word.
Um…it is in fact arbitrary. It is in fact assigned in the womb. Trans people are not the only people that use the term assigned sex, that’s a medical term that helps us explain things to people who lack a functional knowledge of biology.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/think-gender-comes-down-to-x-and-y-chromosomes-think-again/article24811543/

is a good starting point for this discussion. It’s a referenced piece and only a starter for you, not definitive, the science involved is all verified however so its worth reading.
Again we stuff more life into what I assume will be a big reveal of straw man 2.0 here in a bit. You use some very debasing language here to continue to try to make trans people look silly. None of its true, but I’ve given up on expecting your rhetoric to have truth in it. It’s well placed and thought through however. You understand that the natural behavior you’re describing has been noted in some species. Also that same sex only animals exist i.e.; gay and lesbian animals. It has nothing to do with humans and is completely gas lighting on your part but um aye it exists. You get that nobody is saying that the majority is born with this all in alignment and have no problems with it. What you’re really doing is shamming people for a birth deviation; it makes you look bad, heads up. I would love to press on; so far you have only regurgitated very dead arguments.

When we ask what these mean for a trans person as an individual, how it is they know what it means to be female if they are male and vice versa, typically a list gets run off which includes societal expectations of the opposite sex with which a person identifying as trans aligns. Ie. they list off GR as the characteristics of their innate sense of GI that is aligned with their opposite biological sex.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/

I am going to stop here and flat out call you on your inability to functionally convey the truth without bashing Tran’s people. If you look into the self-reporting of trans people only a cursory glance is given to those things, most relate much deeper feelings and understandings and then as a physical manifestation placate cis audiences by including toys and such. I leave that out of my story because of people such as yourself. Dis information is not truth. This straw man your building seems to be filled with the same rotted arguments the last one I tore apart was. It’s disheartening really. Please inform me of how you knew your gender? If you had been told you where a boy from birth, do you feel like you would just be ok with it? Don’t dehumanize the experience solely because you are comfy in your gender or trivialize what you don’t understand. That not a philosophical stance or an argument to the validity of Trans identities, that’s simply you not liking Trans people. Its ok but we are looking for truths remember, not regurgitated terf misinformation.

When we ask what these mean for a trans person as an individual, how it is they know what it means to be female if they are male and vice versa, typically a list gets run off which includes societal expectations of the opposite sex with which a person identifying as trans aligns. Ie. they list off GR as the characteristics of their innate sense of GI that is aligned with their opposite biological sex.

Again, I question your qualification of truth. You seem to be lacking it in your generalized statements about Tran’s individuals.
I will ask you to now please describe how you describe being a women without referring to you vagina. You really dig in here so before I disassemble this shoddy excuse of an argument I will link relevant papers so you can’t back out of the error you committed in this paragraph.

http://www.pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2012/02/15/peds.2011-0907
http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(13)00187-1/abstract
http://m.eje-online.org/content/155/suppl_1/S131.full

First, you even miss-gender you’re made up examples ;-) hint, hint, you’re not winning hearts and minds with that. It’s telling about your ability to have polite discourse though. I will tell you full out that the narrative your painting is a complete fantasy. At certain points we use these attributes to humanize ourselves for cis people, as common ground but it’s not the determining factor. Gender dysphoria and its persistence and severity are the determining factor. No one, not ever, not once has been diagnosed, adult or child, by the toys they play with and the way they dress, if there a tom boy or a fey child. That does not has not and will not happen. I challenge you to give me any proof for those construed statements. Verified truth of post pubescent transition based on a diagnoses pre puberty relying only on clothing preference and toy preference, no such example exists, did an extremely thorough study about it, you’re dead wrong with this. 100% completely, demonstrably wrong.

When we ask about their GE, which most often aligns with either a hyper feminine display, or a hyper masculine display, we ask again about the GR component. If one is truly breaking apart Gender by being trans, why are they dressing in the fashion of the GR assigned with the GI you claim to feel innately which opposes their sex? The answer given is that anyone can dress any way they like. I rarely hear any gender critical person disagree with that. Wear what you want. Who cares? What you wear does not change your biology, so why is it always the most extreme representation of femininity and masculinity that they choose in their expression?

Most often? I would like to see that statistic please. More likely the alignment of GE is proportional to the environmental allowance and freshness thereof. When you are first allowed to explore your gender you can drift to the more popularized versions of it in order to feel happy. It’s been denied your whole life, that settles for most but not for all into an average gender expression, in Tran’s kids this is a non-factor, again showing how helpful it is to start early. You say breaking apart gender. We are just spectral in gender as a species, it’s an acknowledgement not a rending, don’t assume violence. You are disagreeing with it in allot of the above statements but ok, let everyone ware what they want great! Common ground at last!

Pressing further still, if the clothes in fact do not make the man or woman, what does? The answer received is always “if you feel you are a man/woman, then you are.” But what does that mean? What is a woman? What is a man? The answers received always present a circle looping over and over and over ad infinitum, or until they call you a biological essentialist and a bigot and tell you to die in a fire or that they will rape you with their lady-penis.

Here is where we finally get to meet the real you. That hardcore hate really comes through in this paragraph. Admittedly you did well up to this point but now all that straw manning comes to fruition. Your argument is misleading because you ignore your previous definitions to make a point. Plain and simple the total experience of gender is subjective. We have learned that chromosome pairings help in this, and that our mental encapsulation aid us with understanding our gender, also that biological sex and the nature of reproduction lend us to view sex as essential to gender but that is a misconstruction in the same way that thinking a table is solid. At a macro level things get complex. That complexity is how we as a species survive. Outside of your vagina, how do you define your womanhood? Difficult is not circular. If you want to only define it by sexual organs then when a woman is born without the ability to conceive and reproduce what gender are they? Sterile males? Hormone deficient people? Why don’t they get to be gendered? Science does not rely on glib words and feelings. Sometimes we discover things that need deeper exploration and more explanation. It’s what we are currently doing with gender and sex and the roles they play. We are nearing the point where a transplant will allow Trans women to give birth, not to prove a point but because we want to give birth, because we want to be moms, because we have that same clock you have. Here’s the thing. I can already tell how you treat Tran’s women in a conversation. I will never defend a person who threatens rape regardless of gender; I will not tolerate baiting either. I would ask you to please post these thousands of girl dick rape threats please. I will not argue that it has happened to you but I have never said that nor anyone I associate with, so when you make it out to be the norm you are again lying, counter to the statement at the start about wanting the truth…

(Biological essentialism is the idea that characteristics of personalities and likes and dislikes are by nature tied to being male or female and are innate, rather than influenced by society in any way, ie. boys like trucks and are leaders, girls like dolls and cooking. That’s a really simple definition, but one worth noting.)

Thanks.

Still with me? Confusing right? See the circles here? It is meant to keep you confused. There is never a right answer with trans activists because it is all based on unverifiable personal gnosis. The only right answer is that your biology does not change despite feelings, pills, surgery, likes and dislikes, or personality traits. A penis and testes are male, a vulva and vagina are female.

Yup, I ran this by my eight year old niece, she gets it all, it’s only complicated if you need to hate people and deny them personhood, otherwise it’s pretty basic by today’s educational standards. Nope, I have seen you circle back on debunk science to try to prove a point but nope, no circles in my logic yet. I just gave you the right answers, your inability to study is not my fault. Um…I gave you verified lists of credited info so far, there will be more at the bottom to further discredit this. Um that’s again not true, the reason we take hormones and such is explicitly to change biology, blood test bare this out without question, so, um, embarrassing for you…but here’s more proof

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889852913000509

We are asking trans activists, medical professionals, and the public to examine WHY. Why do you feel innately that you were born a girl in a boy’s body despite having an objectively observable body part that distinguishes you as not a girl? Why do you think that liking certain things and dressing a certain way makes you not the person you were born as? Biological differences are measurable in more ways than just genitals, too: Heart size, bone density, height, allocation of fat, grey matter versus white matter in the brain, metabolic rates, hormone levels, and more. This is not new science and it is not bunk or disputed science.

Ever thought maybe it’s the dehumanizing way in which you “ask” sounds more like telling but I will keep reading. Why are you solely focused on trans women? Its like a vitriolic obsession in this article, its telling. That’s 100% not what we say the experience is, again lies about the trans experience to bolster a false conclusion is called a “strawman” you have built a lame one on lies. Your opening statement of truth and logic has now just been dismissed I guess? Can’t find any of it down here. Its is actually disputed old bunk science

http://socgen.ucla.edu/2015/03/challenging-gender-identity-biologists-say-gender-expands-across-a-spectrum-rather-than-simply-boy-and-girl/

so again, wrong.

Tell me, fair readers who are not trans, do you each have an innate sense of adherence to the societal GR for your biological sex? They say that when we aren’t trans, we are “cis” because our innate selves align with the societal expectations put on us on the basis of our sex, (which is a topic for another conversation: trans and cis.) Do you have that alignment? I am a mother of six. I have carried in my body eight pregnancies. I am a very domestically minded person. I am a handy person in the household. I fix things. I build things. I garden. I move heavy things because if I want something done, I do it. I am not overly feminine in that, I rarely wear makeup unless I am going out with my husband or am going to be on camera. I have a simple and pretty modest wardrobe. I keep my hair straight and neat and do not dye it. I don’t shave my body hair. I am aggressive and forward with my opinions. If we were attacked on the street out on a date, I am more likely the one who will be loud and aggressive at a person who is trying to harm us. Am I trans? Gender non-conforming?

Um exseptionalisum much lol, now you throw off your cloak and appeal in a very Socratic way “Lets get our torches” How dare a minority be smaller and more complex than we the masses, genetic derivation be dammed, kill ‘em all.

Again you make a straw man. Again I’m afraid because it’s the exact same argument I have refuted six times now, no trans person uses those factors to determine our gender, that’s a lie. Straight pout falsehood, but your not really interested in truth at this point, your reaching max hate, all those cis people siding with you in your mind, ready to wipe the earth of this plague, I am a mom too. Didn’t make me hateful, and I didn’t have the privilege of carrying them but I love them and am a good handy mother. I change the tractor tires, work the farm, build houses, study, take my hormones, work full time, raise two kids, and have a love life. You know just a person. Your defiance falls flat in the face of my normalcy, sad. Moms shouldn’t seed hate.

I have a cousin who is female. She is also a mechanic. Typically, that’s a male oriented profession. She is also a carpenter. She is also a prolific gardener and an incredible home chef. She keeps her hair long, but often is found wearing jeans and a t-shirt. She rides 4x4s and gets muddy. She hunts. Does her GR align with her GI with her GE with her Sex? Is she trans? Gender non-conforming?

Why do you need to keep making the same refuted point? Its not like it makes it true, its just backing you deeper into your lie, there’s no way out of this being your die hard stance, this is your mountain and I will tell you logic failed you, you abandoned truth ten sentences in and your now just irrationally lashing out at trans women, like a terf is want to do, its fine but take off the sheep skin, the force is not strong with you padawan, we all see you, just be you. Its fine.

So, do you align 100% with the GR put on you by society on the basis of your biological sex? Of course you don’t. No one does. And that’s the problem with gender theory. It’s a big circle of double speak based on subjective and individual feelings. Feelings are not measurable. That which can be seen is measurable. Biological sex can be seen and observed objectively. As such, this is how human beings are categorized. Those who have male gametes and those who have female gametes. You really cannot get any more real than how nature ensures the proliferation of the species.

No. Also no, that’s not the problem with gender theory. Um again disproven above so no to your circular thing again (really need to get an argument that’s not visibly wrong from the start) No this is objectively one misguided separation that needs expanded upon would be the logical and truthful statement. But we are not talking about sex and procreation, this is the second time you tried to bring it in all sidewall like it had been addressed before, which it has in the links I posted but not in your article. What you are using is called an argument from authority, it is ma fallacy involving the subbing in of nonfactual information under the guise of perceived authority. It was executed poorly here but still qualifies as a effort, just its still a lie, so um eww.

One cannot prove scientifically the existence of an innate sense of self that contradicts the reality of nature. One cannot prove a negative. That’s fundamental in debate and science. The expectation that the whole of society coddle this notion for less than 1% is absurd. The expectation that policy and law is instituted, which impact the whole of society, because less than 1% of our population feels things, is an abuse of law. Law is meant to reflect reality, not delusion. Live your life how you choose and stop pathologizing personalities. Enough with the insistence that because you will it, that your biological sex has changed. YOUR TRUTH does not exist. There is THE TRUTH and YOUR OPINION. No scalpel or prescription will turn XY into XX. That’s not how biology works. You cannot become physically something you are not. You’re thinking of mythological shape-shifters. Or unicorns.

I just did. Again, just did. Its not a negative, that’s an argument that works for religion not science, everything I have said is demonstrable and backed by research into modern gender and chromosomal understanding. Again your use of genes is hilarious and shows how little studying you have done. Also this article is completely opinion, 100% you packed it with lies started by stating you wanted truth and ended by saying you delivered, you did not. This was the most un-researched article I have had to refute from a seemingly tangible source in some time. I would hope you understand that veiled politeness is also a lie, feel free to be yourself, its odd when you spew hate but call for civil discourse. Education has a cost, to enter the ring but not have paid the price means you do not show up prepared, as was the case here. Perhaps just letting people live and not trying to strip them of their humanity is more up your ally. My best to you and yours, I don’t hate you, I’m frightened by you, and sad for your choices but not in a hateful way. I hope your day is nothing short of magical.