Seduction or abuse? Is seducing someone ethical or is it manipulation?
This question is posed to both genders. We know that males and females practice seduction. Males who study seduction techniques call themselves "pick up artists". We have seen a recent backlash against these sorts of behaviors. This backlash is associated with changes in the current etiquette which men most follow to be considered a "gentleman". We for instance saw a clear example of this backlash beginning with the anti-street harassment campaign focused on men who approach women in a manner which causes potential discomfort in certain women. We also see the basis of seduction science in what is called "neuro-linguistic programming". Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) is a method of enhancing the communication abilities of the practitioner. Seduction itself is a result of enhanced and highly attuned communication capabilities in my opinion but it must be noted that something like NLP is not fair and may favor the participant with greater brain power in certain areas, more physical attractiveness, or and just more experience in seduction.
Seduction as an expression of power?
For sure seduction can be used in ways which are unethical, and or even mean. Perhaps seduction can also be used in ways which are ethical and or less mean. But whether or not seduction is ethical as a whole hasn't been asked as far as I know?
And let’s be clear: yeah, there’s a whole metric fuck-ton of people who got into pick-up because they wanted to manipulate women into having sex with ‘em. But there are also people — the majority, I’d dare say — who simply want to get better at dating and have no idea how. Pick-up is the only real outlet for those people because… what else do we have? Movies that teach us all the wrong goddamn lessons? Say what you will about pick-up but at least it’s an ethos2
The quote above is interesting as it offers the male take on the "seduction community" which is a bit different from the techniques themselves. The techniques are something a basic understanding of college level psychology would make obvious. The actual skill like anything else is built from experience dating a lot of people. The question then becomes is it abuse if someone has a lot of power measured in seductiveness and they use their advantage to get what they want from other people?
Every five years or so I read a story about how street hypnotists or gypsies are mesmerising and robbing people. Is this a true robbery or did the woman give a gift to a stranger and then realize how stupid she was and decide to say it was a robbery? We could read into it either way but what do you the reader think?
In the Boston case, the victim claims three young women approached her on the street. One of the women asked her a series of questions – all in Cantonese — about her family.
In the span of just a few minutes, the victim alleges the women hypnotized her without her permission and convinced her to go back home and put all of her valuables in a bag.
When all was said and done, the victim handed over to these women $160,000 in cash and jewelry.
According to science hypnosis does not disrupt free will and can never be initiated without consent. All hypnosis is consensual and relies on trust between the hypnotist and the person being hypnotized. The idea that a person can be robbed involuntarily through hypnosis is equivalent to the idea that people are casting magic spells to turn random people into zombie slaves. Hypnosis only works by suggestion and not force so this means even the best hypnotist cannot for example make a person do something they believe is immoral, or wrong, or illogical. In other words, while hypnosis can reduce inhibition (we see this in stage hypnosis), it doesn't put the hypnotist in control.
This however isn't what a court said when a man was actually convicted of hypnosis rape. This case is interesting because there was no evidence at all that he had a means of coercing her beyond "hypnotic techniques". I find this case interesting because it shows us where the line might be between seduction and abuse, but it's unclear exactly even after this case whether or not seduction itself is ethical.
Last November, court documents showed Fine referred to himself as “the world’s greatest lover” after the Lorain County Bar Association filed a motion to have him suspended.
Clearly Fine did not see himself as an abuser according to the documents. This doesn't mean Fine was innocent and ultimately he was sentenced to 12 years in prison.
More on the Fine case, as Fine was a lawyer and this was also between a lawyer and his client which has unethical implications just on that.
It was business as usual. At least, she thought it was.
When she left, though, she noticed that her bra was disheveled, and her vaginal area was wet, according to court documents. Upon further reflection, she realized her memory of everything that went on in the room was foggy.
The meeting blurred into a blank spot, which was odd — it wasn’t as if she’d been drinking alcohol or taking any medications.
It happened again and again, either at Fine’s office or the Lorain County Justice Center. She was confused, worried.
Eventually, she grew concerned enough that in September 2014, she reported it to the Sheffield Village Police Department.
The interesting part about this case is she recorded her interactions with him for the police. In the recordings she presented to the police there were "sexually charged discussions" But the one quote which may have been damning against Fine was:
“You’ll only recollect what we were talking about your case until we see each other tomorrow,” Fine concluded. “Do you understand?”
While I do not have the details on the Fine case because I was not on the jury and have not dug deep to find more, I can say this case gives us a cause and effect example displaying potential consequences for inappropriate seduction. At the same time how does society determine whether seduction is appropriate or inappropriate and how would roleplaying be clearly distinguished from dangerous coercion? This is problematic and results in the question ultimately of whether seduction itself is the problem.
What about when women seduce? In some corporate examples there have been women who have been fired for being "too sexy". There are cases where women use seduction and if we deem seduction is an expression of power, is a form of manipulation, then if genders are equal would we agree that women using this power are abusing or manipulating others? This is to ask the question of whether seduction is unethical only if men use it, or is it unethical for women as well?
Robert Inchierchiro lost his job because he rejected the sexual advances of his female boss. Yes indeed it does occur that sexual harassment happens to men. These sorts of cases are clear cut in my opinion because employees who are in positions of authority (for precisely the reason shown in the example) are in a position to coerce lower level employees into having sex with them.
Recap and core questions:
- Do you think seductiveness is a kind of power which can give someone an unfair advantage?
- Do you think seduction as a whole is ethical or unethical?
- If you think seduction is ethical what are the rules to follow to make sure it remains ethical and does not cross the line?
- If you think seduction is unethical then how should you inform people that what they are doing is unethical?
- If seduction is unethical only in a certain context but ethical in another then under which circumstances is it ethical?
Men and women feel free to answer these questions and discuss how you feel on this topic. Some people (both men and women) view seduction as a subtle form of manipulation. This is clear based on the fact that in some cases women have been fired for being too attractive to men in the workplace. This is also clear based on the fact that some women view seduction as coercive and manipulative. Since this question is rarely if ever asked, now we can discuss the ethics of seduction.
There is a contradiction in"ethically seduce". You see, seduction is part persuasion, part taking the lead and part mystery. Whereas ethical is all about respecting each other's free will and therefore you need transparancy and equality.
You can ask your partner's permission to seduce them, that might work, but only if you also give them the opportunity to stop you and make adjustments to what is happening.
If one can be jailed for sexual assault. I think seduction should be a purnishable crime as well..
yes i agree with that, sex is the second phase of seduction so it should be banned too
Sex without consent already is banned. In fact, sex without consent is called rape and is not even sex anymore. Seduction without consent?
When you're seduced... What happens? You're in need of sex.. If the seduced approach the seducer for sex and he/she denies to give the seduced consent, it becomes rape right? If so the seduction should be punishable.
SEDUCTION IS BLACKMAIL...
Seduction isn't wrong unless you do something wrong with it and the seduced is mentally unfit via age or illness. That is regardless of grnder. Also, a woman wearing a revealing outfit is not only not seduction, its not harrassment and it has nothing to do with you. If i see a man on the beach with a hot bod but hes dumb and i convince him to come to my house im at fault. Not him. If the man is not dumb or falling for it but i pursue him relentlessy again, im at fault. If hes trusting halfway and halfway likes me back but does nothing to make advances towards me--- i am at fault for whatever actions i take.
If he is clever and convinces me to go to his house, where he then robs or abuses me-- he is at fault. It has no matter what he is wearing.
Make sense?
Nice post!
Do you think seductiveness is a kind of power which can give someone an unfair advantage?
--> So, it is not unethical to try to increase your genetical fitness (we have 2 x more female ancestors). The sexual selection is very hard on men, and in my opinion they should have the right to use any tool at hand to improve their attractiveness. I think the renaissance of seduction (it is an old art) is that it is difficult for young men to pinpoint the selection mechanism. In a postmodernist female driven society, study and get a job is often not enough anymore.
Do you think seduction as a whole is ethical or unethical?
It depends of course.
If you think seduction is ethical what are the rules to follow to make sure it remains ethical and does not cross the line?
If you hypnotise someone to act against their free will it is unethical (an illegal). Women often complain that they want to met a man that has the guts to stop them on the street and that things happen by serendipity. But when men do day gaming and hone their skills it is often viewed as manipulation. The threshold should be hight for calling something unethical. Most women want to be seduced too.
Also, women have most of the sexual power in the world, so that women are even in the workforce will lead to a lot of positive discrimination. Some women sleep their way up the ladder, but it is taboo to talk about it. That is unethical seduction in my opinion.
"Some women sleep their way to the top" evidence please.
"Women have the most sexual power" evidence needed
Again, seduction is not a problem its what, when, where how, and who you use it on. Its what you do later. Its how you treat the other persons right to consent.
Been waiting all through work to answer this! I havent seen a post from you in a while and you dont dissapoint! Its very tricky. I think that sexual harrassment is not seduction, thats first and foremost. Yes, men can be sexually harrassed. Sexual harrassment is any unwanted sexual attention, jokes, and discussion. Sexual harrassment at wirk is against the law.
Now, to be a con artist, and take advantage of a weaker person its more difficult. I think there is again tho a difference between seduction and con artistry. One can use seduction, to get people to give them things and if those people are older or younger or mentally unstable but wealthy it can be clear in that the person says "no this was not a gift" or "i was confused and scared" the fact is that if you give valuables and realize that you didnt want to give them--- and there is no evidence other than he said she said--- you might be screwed. But that doesn't make it okay.
I know that i asked for a lot of help with housing before and people felt i was trying to con them. I wasn't using "seduction" per say but i was persuasive as any person who is interested in the arts has to be in order to survive.
So again, ethically, I think it depends on the other person. If they say no and i dont walk away but try again from another angle thats treading on thin ice. But im sure any sales person will tell you that this is the essence of their work and its entirely ethical to them.
When it comes to sexual encounters outside of work this is where i becomes the most dangerous for both sides.
BUT-- I firmly believe that men in positions of power are abusing said power when they invite potential colleagues (especially those who are younger and undiscovered) to their homes with promises of work. A lesser but still dangerous abuse of power is getting drunk with non wealthy /famous people and taking them home.
I had a situation of a similar case. A man who was a leader in an organization and very charming offeredto take me to dinner. We were meant to discuss working together. I was open and when he said cone to my place to look at files i stupidly went. "To just talk" i said multiple times. Then when we got to his place it was a huge house that was dark and empty. I guess each room was being rented. He had his files, on the floor. But still it was im pressive and stupidly i fekt safe. This was a well trusted community person. Honestly, i was attracted to him. But a: i wanted to do business and b: i dont normally move quickly in this situation.
After a very short time sitting on the floor of his bedroom he stoppedtalking and started kissing. I was shocked not that it was happening but with how quickly one thing led to the next. Tried to stop it multiple times. Eventually he held me down. He laughed at me and told me i liked it. This is where seduction goes very array.
Are there methods to recall memories suppressed by hypnotism?
This is a hard topic, i dont think there is any true answer. Its good food for thought for sure. To me this starts to boil down to the general question of free will. Without going down that black hole though, this questuon of the ethicality of seduction is directly addressed by consent culture. With the idea of consent the call and response of seduction is made a bit more transparent, and with pauses for acknowledgement before taking next steps. With out being aware of what the other person wants or feels, and only caring for your own wants is of course manipulative.
As far as I know, a person can go into a trance and tune stuff out and yes suggestion from a hypnotist can make precise details of a conversation vague. This happens all the time. If you ever went into a trance while in a car talking to someone, or if you ever listen to music or watch movies, trance induction happens all the time.
If you listen to a song, and the song tells you to go on a killing spree, and you go do it, then you can't sue the song writer saying they hypnotized you with their lyrics even if the song could put a person into a mental suggestive state or even a trance. So to answer your question, it's extremely hard or perhaps impossible to know what a person does or doesn't remember. Perhaps a lie detector test?
There are questions too. In hypnosis in order to get that deep into a trance a person has to trust the hypnotist and go along with it. The direct method of hypnosis doesn't work on a person who doesn't go along with it. This is why it's very difficult to know.
In my opinion, based on all I know of hypnosis, it cannot be done without consent. It is possible to give consent enough to go along with it, and then the memory loss part cause you to not even remember clearly. In that case even if there was somehow consent it seems very stupid for any hypnotist to then say to the person being hypnotized that you should not remember it.
Wouldn't they want them to remember it so as to be sure they have continued giving consent?
On consent, not sure what consent culture is. Can you define this for me?
Consent for sex is required. Consent for seduction is something no one seems to ask for. People are just seducing one another. The question is should these people seek consent and would that make it ethical?
Consent not being a part o seduction in popular culture is a lot of what the "Consent culture" idea focuses on. It makes the claim that consent should be a part of seduction, not just sex.
here is a short blog post about it.
http://onlywithconsent.org/blog/consent-culture
@dana-edwards, this is interesting.
I am more comfortable with stating it as "amoral".
Yes.
Neither. Different beliefs, different strokes. Some people even demand to be teased else they label you boring.
Let he/she who's naturally blesssed with seductive weaponries refrain from abusing it, using it to gain unfair advantage.
Tell them to their face.
Bringing human dignity to play. Seducing humans like they have no more than the sexual intelligence of a dog makes it ugly.
This is a great topic and what you've put forward is a serious meal for thought.
For me it's pretty clear. Seduction is not coercion, it's play. If seduction involves true manipulation, it is not seduction, or at least not only that. Thus defined seduction is always ethical.
The reason for this is that the seducee (if that's even a term) has already been moved by their own impulses, desires, etc. which originate within them but in response to the other. The seducee derives extra pleasure in being seduced, as does the seducer in their role. As you mentioned, like hypnosis, it can only occur with willing participants.
The dark side of this is that the play is actually modelled after real coercion. But this is not unusual in sexual activity and play. Certainly one school of thought sees sex as the safe space which dangerous things can be acted out. Of course in many ways sex is anything but safe (think of pregnancy, STIs, strong emotions, etc.) but in another it is ideally practiced within an environment of trust, or at least of self assured power.
So this is where the play aspect comes in and it may not be clear out of context if it's coercion or seduction. This is why we can have a reasonable doubt. But that's play for you, often ambiguous, dangerous and reckless.
Ethical or not, for me it's still unethical. But yeah, it's hard to inform people that are seducing that what they're doing is not a good behaviour as they might have more power or ability
Seduction is indeed human, and everyone who is sexually active does it to some degree, whether or not they are doing so consciously.
Whether it is "good" or "bad" depends entirely upon intent; illegal action of many kinds requires a finding of intent.
Anyone, male or female, who attempts to seduce someone else for nefarious purposes is in the wrong, and is doing something both amoral and unethical.
But there is a lot more to seduction than that. Seduction, in fact, goes on in pretty much every bedroom among consenting adults at one time or another; what man, or woman, has never tried to seduce their lover, especially early in the relationship?
Is seduction still "bad" if both parties are totally into it, and enjoying the process?
As for hypnosis and NLP, as you stated, neither can force anyone into doing something against their will. Many hypnotists have tried, including in government studies, and it simply doesn't work.
Having said that, people hypnotize themselves on a regular basis, and anyone acting in trance is capable of making some pretty detrimental decisions that can cause harm to their own basic welfare.
Men and women who choose to keep going back to a harmful relationship often fall into this category. No hypnotist needed.
Change is a part of leading a good life