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RE: If you are calling yourself Alt-Right you might want to be careful... I debated and then was given some info
I am not going to let the Left define what Alt-Right is, or isn't.
These were the same morons saying that Pepe the cartoon frog was a symbol of racism.
Are there racists that define themselves as Alt-Right? Yes
Are they a majority of the Alt-Right movement? No.
Is anyone who questions the integrity of identity politics a racist? No
Is anyone who bridles at being dishonestly called a racist, a racist? No
(That last is the essence of the Kafka Trap)
I am not accusing you of being an Alt-Right basher, but we need to be careful of where we are getting information from.
If the Left tells us it is OK to assault a "racist", then of course everyone that puts the lie to their failed ideology is a "racist"
He is not the left. Neither am I. Read the article. I didn't grab a single material from the LEFT.
I was defending the label Alt-Right, so kindly refrain from a kneejerk reaction and read it. It is a Public Service Announcement.
I consider the terms Left/Right as generalizations which makes them logical fallacies. Yet, that doesn't mean you will not have guilt by association perceptions you need to deal with. Which is fine, but it is good to know they are there.
There is not a single LEFT source that I provided there I believe. My friend is also not left.
My point is that I am not going to be worried about guilt by association, and that the majority of criticism of the Alt-Right is by people that accused a cartoon of being a racist and/or cherry pick what they want to portray the movement as a whole as.
Yes, but I did not cite any left sources. Not one I believe. Also check out @ats-david comment and my reply. It is a good TL;DR or if you did read it all... it might be a better explanation than my lengthy post.
I'll take a look
It doesn't matter what you think the term means, it matters what the majority of the population thinks it means. Spending time and effort defending the label takes away from the time and effort to defend issues and can only cause harm to your cause. Words often change meanings, especially in politics. Just look at the history of the word 'liberal'.
Sure it matters. Because "what most of the world believes" will be subjective based upon where you are getting your news. The Alt-Right label is being both used as something good, and something bad depending upon your source. The truth of the matter is that Majority doesn't prove truth or false.
The truth is still the truth even if no one believes it.
A Lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it.
So minority, majority, etc... doesn't mean shit in the scope of the truth.
A label is unimportant in the scope of the truth and you are fighting a losing battle trying to define this one. If you are getting your news from any mainstream media source (including Fox News), and most people do hence the term "mainstream", then you are seeing only a negative portrayal of alt-right. Calling yourself 'alt-right' doesn't help your cause and it's just a stupid label. The truth is that there are a lot of people who are espousing racist and otherwise bigoted views that are calling themselves alt-right. Yes, they may be co-opting that term but good luck explaining that nuance to others. The whole point of a label like this is to let others know your viewpoints in a shorthand way. If most people take it to mean a racist bigot what good does it do you? You can call yourself whatever you want and I really don't care. Just offering up some free advice. Take it or leave it.
If wikipedia is to be believed then the term has racist origins anyway (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right). I wasn't familiar with the term myself until this election cycle and I pay attention. But then I don't tend to pay too much attention to white nationalists so there is that.
That meeting hosted near the whitehouse after Trump's victory by the guy who has been given credit for coining (or at the very least popularizing) that term (Richard Spencer) in which nazi propaganda was quoted and nazi salutes were given pretty much doomed the term as anything anyone would look at in a positive light. That is the truth. Say what you want about news sources but I saw the video.
Read... read read...
I did not try to define it. The article clearly states that. I described the reaction and attempts by others. I acknowledged there are many different people.
I explained what a generalization was... etc. It's all right there in the original post...
Also I am not frustrated with you... was just having a big SLAVERY related debate in slack, and my opponent decided to "fuck off for a bit" and take a work call. :)
Also I don't pay attention to white nationalists EITHER.
This article was inspired by someone in slack using a generalization that said something along "I'll not riot shame, all alt-right people are white supremacist, racist, assholes anyway"
I knew some people that claim to be alt-right and I knew that was not true.
In addition, it was clearly what is known as a haste generalization and those are almost always false.
So I debated him...
When I was done I learned about this faction that does fit his description that the opposition is attempting to use to label all people who identify as Alt-Right that.
The mainstream media of course is largely backing them up and repeating it.
It is often their justification for their protests that might turn into riots.
So I wrote this post as a public service announcment so that those that do identify as Alt-Right would know this is being done, where the garbage being used to stereotype and generalize is coming from, and hopefully inform them so they could either stop using the label, or at least be informed about where the ammunition being used is coming from.
That's it... that is all. No effort to DEFINE anything. I've seen several different definitions of Alt-Right at this point.
Also there is only one person for whom you can decide what is important or not. Yourself. ;)
I'm sure there were good Nazis too but so what? Words matter. The origin of the term and what MOST people believe it to mean does matter. Words are how we communicate with one another and it's generally good to have a reasonably common definition of them. The term 'alt-right' by all accounts was coined by a white nationalist who had a meeting after Trumps victory where Nazi propaganda was repeated and Nazi salutes were given (the term was coined some years ago but it's the same guy). I'm not sure why anybody who does not support those actions would use that term to define themselves. It would be like me calling myself a Nazi and arguing that all Nazi's don't support taking over Europe and Jewish genocide. It may technically be true but that is what the group is known for. There may well be "good" alt-right people but then they must not know the origin of the word and what the philosophy was of those who originated it.
I guess I'm just not understanding why it is a term people would want to use for themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right
And words are hijacked frequently so they no longer mean what they originally meant. It kind of drives me crazy. What MOST people do or do not believe may matter to you. I could care less. I do care about the origins of the word and what it was intended to mean.
Though MOST people can be swayed with effort that a word means something else, and then the old meaning seems to vanish. I am not a fan of that and have actually written a series of blog posts on it before. You might like them. They are from months ago.
I agree! But in the case of 'alt-right', I don't think the word was hijacked by White Nationalists. They are the ones credited with coming up with it and they are the ones I can first recall using it.
I see no proof this "most" is true. If you want to say Most of their opposition then you are correct. That is certainly not MOST people though.
I honestly had not encountered anyone using the white supremacist definition until yesterday.
I'd heard people call people on the "right" such things before, but not an entire group.
So I'd contend that it is not those who label themselves 'alt-right' either.
As I am not RIGHT or LEFT. I think they both suck.
I do try to read a lot, but I don't go out of my way to dig up dirt on the left or the right. In fact, I get annoyed by people who do that.
So without actively seeking it, it literally took until yesterday for me to encounter it.
It was someone saying he wasn't going to "riot shame" and that made the statements about white supremacy, and racism and used the generalization ALL.
Also, I haven't looked yet, but are you certain the term never existed before the white supremacist started using it?
EDIT: That's kind of like me saying most people think the left is satanic. There are people that do, but they are certainly not most. :)
I can't say with absolute certainty that it was never used before white nationalists started using it, however I can say with certainly that they were the first to make the term known to a wide audience. In my observation, the thing that made it known to a very wide audience was 1) The white nationalist given credit for coining the term in 2010 (or thereabouts), Richard Spencer, had a celebration meeting somewhere near the Whitehouse after Trump won. In that meeting they espoused Nazi propaganda and even gave Nazi salutes. I found it to be pretty disturbing myself. 2) Trump appointing Steve Bannon who recently described Breitbart (which he ran until his appointment) as news for the alt-right'.
For better or worse, this has been what has defined the alt-right for most people and brought he term to their attention (I stand by my claim 'most' though I can't prove it to you). But seriously, check out the wikipedia article I linked to and this video of Richard Spencer:
These are the things that have brought the term to the attention to most Americans. The 'good' alt-right no doubt has certain views it is interested in bringing to the masses and certain things they want to 'educate' people on. Clinging to the 'alt-right' term will keep them from doing so, regardless of whether you or anybody else think it is fair or right.
I found this to be a pretty good summary of what has brought the alt-right into the public limelight (despite being from CBS): http://www.cbsnews.com/news/steve-bannon-and-the-alt-right-a-primer/
That video is in my original post by the way.
Sorry, lost track...
I actually was not disturbed by the salutes. I chuckled and got distracted.
Do you know why?
That was actually very close to what the official salute in the U.S. looked like until the Nazi's came around.
We changed it to hand over heart so we wouldn't be mistaken for acting like a Nazi, but the salute had essentially been that for some time until it was changed.
So the first time I saw that I got distracted by that little side jaunt in history and didn't really pay attention to the guy.
So until yesterday when my friend was naming that guy and sharing that post I didn't even know his name. :)
Yes, and that was a pretty good reason to change it. So given what that salute is associated with today, I think it gives a fair indication of what kind of people those are. Or they could just be ignorant (but I repeat myself). I first heard his name and 'alt-right' at about the same time (or not very far apart anyway). I think the same is true for most people that have heard of alt-right, hence the negative view of those calling themselves alt-right.
While I could be wrong, I doubt they made up that salute on the spot or are doing it to harken back to 1915 nostalgia.
Nah, I doubt that was their intentions. I remember vaguely thinking "These people are dumb" then noticing the salute and remembering that little bit of trivia that most people don't know.
I can't remember all the dumb shit I've seen. It doesn't stay in my memory as there is too much of it. I see it all over the place from all parties, and labels.
Lately those protesting, and rioting though have added a burst of speed to their group and I can't keep up with the amount of stupidity I am seeing/hearing from that area lately.
There are smart people too, but man do they appear to be outnumbered.
we lost the use of the word "liberal" because we allowed the lying garbage of the left to define it
I moved this up a couple levels since we keep hitting the nesting limit.
I don't disagree with that.
Yet also a thing that can be important is where a person first learns the meaning of a word/label.
It appears that a huge amount of people that self identify as Alt-Right don't even know those White Nationals are there.
;)
So you are saying they are hijacking the word? :)