Open letter to those who provide Red Flag with downvotes
A major flag / downvote war is spreading on Steemit
Images I use in this post are credit to pixabay.com
Big and small offices use the red flag without warning why they do it
No one should be allowed to give red flag with downvote without explaining it in advance
What signals will it give to new users?
Just lots of questions they don't know the answers to
My suggestion for the next Hardfork is
The use of downvote / flagging cannot come until you give a factual reason with warning. And the warnings should then come with a yellow flag
If the warnings are not heeded, it will be possible next time to give the red flag, but even then it must be described why the red flag comes.
Anyway, you should already enter a field that says you must comment before you can access flag / downvote
It seems as if the club Red Flag is now growing strongly and has a different agenda than helping to teach others about what steemit is.
When you spend so much time on downvote and flagging
I assume that you also see and read the whole post before giving a downvote.
I'm not against the red flag due to plagiarism
and spam for where it is necessary to give it
I want an explanation from you as to why my posts are flagged / downvoted and answers should come especially from @smooth who also gives downvote to some people I support
Even posts I and others have had about SPUD have been downvoted
But you may not know what SPUD is and see my name attached to it and just give a downvote, it's totally idiotic of you who did it
I expect answers from all of you and explain why you flag / downvoter when it is not spam / plagiarism
@justineh, @therealwolf and @whatsup
is one of the few who says why the flags give a downvote
@smooth @thevil @sospicy @renyd @jertrasoim @grenai @promobot @roadang @likwid @carfemise @rezsad @twosmin @vikeazim @juntre @eonwarped @markkujantunen @joshmania @steempatron @joshman @dr-frankenstein @curangel @downvoteme @steamsteem @termium @okean123 @ticopurelife @ozchartart @zer0hedge @celestal @nickyhavey @acidyo @artopium @znnuksfe @ratna24 @transisto @adsup @ozchartart @lordbutterfly @transisto @dicetime @tagflagger @ctime @deito @hizzy @tygewer @acidyo @michealb @coininstant @lyndsaybowes @jacobtothe @jlsplatts @hizzy @twosmin
That's what I get on the list today, but that's just a small part of it
Have you got an undeserved downvote / flag and no explanation is given
I hope you write a comment about it here
Am very grateful if you all Re-steemed this post so many can understand what is happening with the flag / downvonte nowadays
I hope we comb create a debate about this before we see red flags everywhere
A major flag / downvote war is spreading on Steemit
Big and small offices use the red flag without warning why they do it
No one should be allowed to give red flag with downvote without explaining it in advance
What signals will it give to new users?
Just lots of questions they don't know the answers to
My suggestion for the next Hardfork is
The use of downvote / flagging cannot come until you give a factual reason with warning. And the warnings should then come with a yellow flag
If the warnings are not heeded, it will be possible next time to give the red flag, but even then it must be described why the red flag comes.
Anyway, you should already enter a field that says you must comment before you can access flag / downvote
It seems as if the club Red Flag is now growing strongly and has a different agenda than helping to teach others about what steemit is.
When you spend so much time on downvote and flagging
I assume that you also see and read the whole post before giving a downvote.
I'm not against the red flag due to plagiarism
and spam for where it is necessary to give it
Even posts I and others have had about SPUD have been downvoted
But you may not know what SPUD is and see my name attached to it and just give a downvote, it's totally idiotic of you who did it
I expect answers from all of you and explain why you flag / downvoter when it is not spam / plagiarism
@justineh, @therealwolf and @whatsup
is one of the few who says why the flags give a downvote
@smooth @thevil @sospicy @renyd @jertrasoim @grenai @promobot @roadang @likwid @carfemise @rezsad @twosmin @vikeazim @juntre @eonwarped @markkujantunen @joshmania @steempatron @joshman @dr-frankenstein @curangel @downvoteme @steamsteem @termium @okean123 @ticopurelife @ozchartart @zer0hedge @celestal @nickyhavey @acidyo @artopium @znnuksfe @ratna24 @transisto @adsup @ozchartart @lordbutterfly @transisto @dicetime @tagflagger @ctime @deito @hizzy @tygewer @acidyo @michealb @coininstant @lyndsaybowes @jacobtothe @jlsplatts @hizzy @twosmin
That's what I get on the list today, but that's just a small part of it
Have you got an undeserved downvote / flag and no explanation is given
I hope you write a comment about it here
Am very grateful if you all Re-steemed this post so many can understand what is happening with the flag / downvonte nowadays
I hope we comb create a debate about this before we see red flags everywhere
Greetings @xpilar,
Lovely to see you writing about this controversial subject.
Sorry.....but the downvote idea is a terrible one.....if spam is the problem then limit the number of posts, limit the number of accounts. etc.
Downvotes are sucking the lifeblood out of Steemit......a negative experience all around.
Sidenote...it has probably been three years since smooth downvoted bleujay's post.....when I had less than one dollar on the post..... englishtchrivy spoke up for me. hehe
However the same the as it is now....they had an untestesd idea.....they were going to go after who the whales had voted for...as I recall extremely unpopular when just a few were doing it....so now they given everyone the ability.
The point is it is memorable when one is downvoted......rather hard to forget...especially when it is nothing you can correct....you just happen to be in the way of their agenda.
So sorry to see you have been downvoted...it seems none are being spared.
Wishing you all the best.
Cheers from @bleujay.....
Send me a note when sanity has returned. hehe
Principle....There is no reasoning with irrationality.
Thank's for your feedback @bleujay
My opinion is that everyone must be given the opportunity to correct their mistakes, otherwise no one will learn from it.
I also made mistakes here in my start phase in 2016,
but @englishtchrivy took me under his wings and taught me what was right and wrong.
She became my mentor here at Steemit.
This made me teach to those who made mistakes in their startup phase as well.
Imagine if everyone could do the same here at Steemit and in the real world.
But now it seems that everything is just about money here and downvoter even though content is of good quality, yes they have a different agenda
Regards @xpilar
lol ok. Most of my downvotes are for the number one reason on the downvote list (disagreement on rewards) as well as vote buying.
Think people should explain their upvotes more than their downvotes. that's where i see the most dishonesty.
Thank you for your feedback @michealb
I understand what you mean,
but using flags as revenge will destroy the great platform we have in the long run.
easy, dont revenge flag :)
yes @michealb, great if everyone could do it 👍🙂
100% agree on this, it is almost like now they have eradicated the spam posters the spare downvote power is burning a hole in their Steem account so they are just going after anyone that is posting something they might not particularly like.
It’s a sad regression because for a few weeks after HF21 Trending actually worked and had posts I was interested in. Today it’s back to being the same names over and over that obviously are in a massive Steem power holders circle vote - that nobody dare downvote
If this continues post quality will just keep dropping, because who wants to spend hours creating a post - only for someone to decide they don’t like it so they will remove all the rewards. And with the totally uncalled for downvote trails - the situation is just going to get completely out of hand.
It’s frustrating for me because pre HF21 I reassured many people the Steem blockchain was better then this, and the downvotes would be used to control spam, plagerism and liable content only. More fool me.
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Hi @c0ff33a
Glad to see that you understand what I want to illustrate with my post about downvote, but I'm willing to believe with enough illumination about what's going on now, many who use downvote will see it differently
Therefore, I call for a yellow flag with comment before a downvote can be given. changes here must be made before it goes too far
Lovely to hear your thoughts @c0ff33a,
Agree with your comment in its entirety.
Kind Regards from @bleujay/@bentleycapital.....
Thank you for your service as a witness.
Cheers!
Not everyone is like this.
I try to offer constructive help and will do on anything I downvote moving forward and I think that's where the true power and benefit of the downvote lies in offering constructive criticism.
Sadly, it looks like I'm the only one who was tagged in that list from the original post who is bothering to reply so I'm starting to feel like the exception to this rule.
If I start getting revenge flags, I'd like to think an honest and adult discussion would happen between me and the person who did so we can work it out as that's where progress can be made.
Call me a radical thinker but shouldn't the ultimate aim be to help each other make amazing content that will bring people here and we can all thrive?
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Yes @nickyhavey, it seems that you are the one standing up and explaining why. For that I want to thank you again
I'm sure some more people have seen their own names on the list, but as I say some have a different agenda than what you have.
I could have made that list a long shot, but don't think many will answer. But we have a problem for now comes autodownvote for users where they trust others to provide downvote / flag.
Imagine what can happen when they do not know what they are doing to down vote and not read the post
@xpilar
This is what it should be about for me. People having honest conversations about what can be done to improve a delicate situation. I can't speak for the other users you mentioned as I don't know them really.
Yes I saw the post on trending about the downvote tool from a guy called howo?... I'm not sure that's a great thing and agree with you (I also downvoted it because it was over $100 and didn't agree with that reward which I mentioned). I think we need to be very careful with "bandwagon downvoting".
Maybe I should write a post about it all 😁
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Hi @nickyhavey
I think you should write about it.
Because you see everything from both sides of the table now
Hey @xpilar, I finally managed to get my post out about it and hope you find it useful.
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Hi @nickyhavey
I hope they with another agenda read your post and opened their eyes.
If they could only think like you, the problem would be no problem
Thanks again for the post you wrote
Hey @xpilar
I appreciate the conversations we have had about this all. It really has been an eye opening experience the last 6 weeks.
Keep up the great work with your digital art. I take it you use the #creativecoin tag?
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@nickyhavey
Good on you for nailing your colours to the mast. I find myself a little conflicted or, perhaps, confused. Or both. It seems that some of the proposals are for just another generation of bots - or am I missing something?
I do like the notion of redistribution and until that is understoood (if it ever is), these debates will continue to rage. I also have to say that nine time out of ten, when I upvote a post, I comment on it. As for the downvotes, call me a wuss or perhaps the accounts I follow don't use bots or I'm not sufficiently savvy to identify bid bot abuse. Perhaps I should pay more attention.
Yea well it's come at a cost to my mental health what's happened over the past 3 weeks and I've got a flag from someone who supports xpilar on my two posts as well without any message as to why which is ironic given the situation...
Smart to stay out of it Fiona, I'll see you around 💪
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I think you have been flagged back by them for doing the same. Therefore, I believe that all red flags should also provide a comment when used. So I am very happy that you are now giving a comment when you flag @nickyhavey
If everyone continues without saying why they are flagging someone, this will end up with a giant war
I am sorry about this @nickyhavey. Full upvote for your comment - for what it's worth
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Downvote War is already started and will be growing. As I noticed many just join to downvote trial and in that case you may get downvotes from ten, twenty or even more accounts who actually even do not know why your post is used because they "trust" those people who downvote and give their power for that.
Of course many do manually and some of them read posts, but what makes me skeptic, when those people talk about a circle of friends voting friends and do not like it but that is how community works. Being for few years on Steemit we know those people so well, we know their stories, hobbies, learn their countries and cultures. It is like real good friendship. But those who downvote just come once and do not like such support and downvote. Looking at their account we see that they do the same, there is a circle of the same strong users who all the time supporting each other and their rewards are also shooting high. But they do not bother about it, because they have power.
I absolutely agree, those people who downvote with such powerful accounts should just as a matter of being respectful and polite gesture, just leave a message why it happens so that people may rethink and maybe change something. But without that the Users after being bullied will simply withdraw their Steem and leave the platform and invest in other Cryptocurriencies. That will be the end result of such downvote War.
Hi @stef1
It is scary and already in use
Here we fully agree, and it needs a change so that the system does not scare people, but instead attracts new people
I believe there must be a better UI or better design for downvote use, suddenly losing payout doesn't look good, the other day I was flagged even just a small amount, doesn't feel very nice for sure. I understand you. Those names you tagged, I think they are really trying to return reward to the whole reward pool.
That said, flags still feel personal, I wonder if there's any better way to do that. I see downvotes quite normal on other platform because they are mostly anonymous, and not related to the actually rewards. Say if I'm a nobody on instagram, my okish photos are only liked by some friends.
I do think stake based influence system can be designed better.
Hi @joythewanderer
Yes, it feels like a personal attack when you get a red flag and you don't know why it is being done.
You can see what @smooth did here, gave me a downvote of $ 7.08. It doesn't feel right because I don't think he even looked at my post. When @smooth provides such a powerful downvote, he should comment on that too
Hey I feel you, one of my post was also flagged by smooth, I think it's because I wrote the post in English and my writing skill isn't very good. But still even knowing that and knowing probably smooth wants to make the rewards look more fair to the quality, I certainly didn't feel very good that day.
It feels a bit like someone thinks you are not worth it. I think the problem is also steem is just lack of top notch quality posts at the moment. If there are loads of high quality posts, we will admit maybe our posts aren't worth, but now it's not the case yet.
Did you use bidbot?
Hi @joythewanderer
Earlier, long before HF21, I also used bitbot to promote posts, but I understood that using them was no longer my way.
I also delegated to budbots before to increase my profits, but have also stopped
delegating to them.
Now I'm leasing out SP to other users now, a small part
I see that sometimes I get votes on my posts from the bidbot
But they vote of their own freedom, I don't pay for it
Hey, I'm one of those who is redistributing rewards and believe that upvote and downvotes play the same role. It's as simple as that. I have no interest in getting involved in flag wars, that's wholeheartedly unhelpful for the platform.
I've bought up 10k steem this last month or so and I want the platform to thrive as we will all grow.
I've been hit with downvotes from these small accounts as well, in fact, in the past have had posts flagged to 0 because of things I said and that hurt at the time.
This is the Internet though, bad things happen and we can't be so sensitive to it. But with Web 3.0 that is being built on steem, we all have a stake in the platform by virtue of Steem power, and have a say in where we want rewards to go to which INCLUDES the downvote button (I prefer the rewards redistribution button).
Anyway, I'm not out to get anyone, just using the reward distribution tools as they were intended.
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Hi @nickyhavey
And why are you giving these users 100% downvote
Have you explained why you give them a downvote?
@xpilar
Why do I need to explain? Do you explain why you give 100% upvotes to the users you do?
It's the same concept of rewards distribution I've explained elsewhere on your original post.
If we are going to go down the line of asking about every downvote decision then we need to do the same for every upvote decision.
Edit: I have now explained my decision to downvote on all the posts you highlighted above due to disagreement with rewards given and will provide explanations as to why I downvote in future on posts made.
Thanks for the debate
Hi @nickyhavey
The red flag is to impose a penalty on someone, so the receiver of the penalty should know why he is receiving the penalty.
It's nice of you to tell those you downvote about why. Because then that person and others know why you use downvote and can decide on it. and then it should be enough with a post to the user from you even if you then continue to downvote them again
This is a great start, thank you very much
There is no more red flag (at least on steemit.com; some other UIs may still use it). Actually there never was, the downvote was always a downvote, where people can express their opinion on payout value (just like upvoting and downvoting on every other site), but some genius decided to change the downvote to a flag, which made it into an attack (you did something wrong! Wave the red flag!).
Downvote simply means one thing, that the voter thought that the payout should be lower. Upvote means the voter thought that payout should be higher. That is all it means.
thank's for your feedback @smooth
But it is appropriate to explain why a downvote is also done on good content that does not have much merit
So it is clear that this is being used incorrectly
I don't agree on expecting explanations. There is a good reason not to expect or demand that downvoters explain everything. Downvoting is not rewarded the way upvoting is. Anyone downvoting is either malicious or doing a public service. Malicious downvoters won't explain and demanding more uncompensated effort and explanations from those doing good by downvoting means that less people will be willing to do it.
Just as others have stated that upvotes don't get explanations, downvotes often won't either. Just accept it as the subjective opinion of the voter (even if you don't agree with it) and go on with life (which could include also making your own, contrary vote, or not).
Noticed that this seems like a reasonable response. It can feel a little personal and many of us are paying a price for it as well.
It certainly isn't perfect.
The goal is to normalize the downvotes. However the revenge downvotes are also free.
It's an interesting time to be sure.
Hi @whatsup
Thank you for your feedback
Yes, they are here "revenge downvotes" and I am afraid what they are doing.
Therefore, I also believe that a yellow flag should be introduced where you have to type in a comment field before it can be used and without the possibility of downvote. It is the first warning to the user before it is possible to give a red flag. It's about learning and not just punishing.
You were one of the reasons why I went away from using bidbot
Because you told me why when my profits got too high
Hope more people here understand how important it is to get help from others and learn about Steemit and not just give a punishment
I'm hoping this is just a phase well people get used to using their downvotes and a new pecking order is established.
There will always be people behaving badly. Maybe that is revenge downvotes. Maybe it is trading upvotes (which feels fine to the people doing it of course, but cheats everyone else out of whatever part of the pool is going to pay for traded votes that don't reflect merit).
It isn't those misbehaving who define the system, it is what everyone else does about it. When you see revenge downvotes, upvote. When you see vote trading or undeserved/bought/self upvotes, downvote.
thank's for your feedback @smooth
You give me an honest answer thank you for that
Yellow flag! So now if i need to pull a red you've been warned! lol jk!
Hahaha! The traffic light system of flagging... That's an interesting one!
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Hi @coininstant
Don't you think everyone needs a warning before they are red-flagged.
See you get downvote on your posts. After all, it would be nice to have it cleaned up 🙂
This is really well said
@xpilar, You've come up with prodoctive ideas and definitely these should be implemented because for newbies these kind of situation can lead to Dissapointment and definitely a bad impression for the Ecosystem.
Enjoy your time ahead and stay blessed.
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Nice to hear, thanks @chireerocks
Thank you and welcome.
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Re-steemed.
♨ on!
thank you @novacadian
I usually only downvote posts that have been flagged for abuse or authors who are consistantly flagged for abuse. If one person explains no need for everyone to explain. If the person already knows what theybare doing is wrong, no point in constantly reminding them.
I don't see flaggers as a police force or judges. I just see them as concerned authors and curators who want to see organic growth and decent etiquette.
Revenge flagging is the biggest problem
People can tag and ask if flagged or give 1% revenge to get attention. Often they just whine all over the place and start flagging everything at 100%, it is madness.
Hi @abitcoinskeptic
I think we are in agreement
But think that a warning anyway should be there for factual reason.
Then others can also see the warning and the reason for the flagging
But I am afraid of what is happening now with those who use flagging for revenge
I think revenge flagging is the biggest problem. Another issue is it is so simple to avoid, but then the original reason for flagging the person doing the revenge doesn't get resolved.
However, trying to reason does work with most people, so being informative is great as long as at least one person on the post is having the right discussion with the person being flagged.
hi @abitcoinskeptic
I totally agree with you