Will it rain downvotes?
This is not as deep a dive as @vandeberg's into the downvote pool and that could have gone a bit deeper. However, I do like that Steemit Inc devs are finally joining into the public discourse on these types of topics.
While a lot of people don't seem to understand the need to downvote and see it as more tinkering with the economics that will favor whales, that is not really the case at all. What people have to remember is that to balance the "wisdom of the crowd", negatives have to be voiced also and currently on Steem, there is very little incentive to speak up negatively.
Have you ever reviewed a restaurant or product an a website with a star rating? Do you give everything 5 stars? Unlikely. Some people think that this is like voting but it isn't quite because a 1 star rating is negative but a vote is always positive, regardless of the weight. It might be 10% or 100%, it doesn't matter, it is a positive for the post.
To actually have a sensitive rating system (and voting on Steem is a rating system), it requires a spectrum of potential from positive to negative. This doesn't happen now because there is no benefit in downvoting, and because of the stigma held around it, most won't do it even if they have the available voting power because they do not want the feeling of doing harm or the repercussions of whoever was downvoted.
While people might be sick and tired of seeing "whales self-vote", they are not tire enough to start flagging those accounts because they do not want to be the only ones to do so and currently, they likely would be the only ones. This is not a very good system for decentralized regulation as is.
Normalizing downvoting in the community and creating the understanding that the Steem is not yours until in your wallet will go a long way to cleaning up the abuse on the platform because pretty much everyone will be able to have a say and, with a slight curve, the more highly rewarded content is, the more effect a downvote has on it.
What this means is that those who are boosting nonsense posts to the moon in Trending are much, much easier to lower and with a few free downvotes that returns that value to the pool, there will be many more willing to take at least the earnings off them, if not force a bit of a loss. In short order, the content that gets boosted will change form as the risk of loss is too high unless the content deserves to be there.
From what I have read, a lot of the concern around free downvotes surrounds a few large accounts who even now don't mind letting the flags flow. These accounts are always a risk to earnings, no matter what the algorithms are however, if the crowd decides, with free flags those accounts won't be earning another Steem on the platform from content creation as there is a much more voting power in the crowd.
Currently, there is very little incentive to get involved, later that might change. If this downvote pool and curve had been in place when Haejin was getting flagged, he would never have become a whale as the small group who did flag would have been able to take all earnings to zero, every day for eternity. What this means is that all of the downvoted value goes back into the pool for redistribution to all the content that wasn't flagged.
While I am not technical enough to go into all of the algorithmic details, I do think that the system needs to change and when it changes, we will be able to see if behaviors change on the platform too. All the hypothesizing in the world is unlikely to fully uncover how such a diverse group of users will behave under these proposed changes. It could be that not much changes at all, it could be that it is much worse than now, it could be that it is much better than now.
I do not think that suddenly everyone is downvoting willy-nilly because for the most part, people aren't that way inclined and if you remember, the most active voting SP on the platform are in the Orca and Dolphin classes. That means that while the whales pack an individual punch, the wisdom of the crowd actually lays in a much wider distribution of accounts and with a curve, the thousands of minnows have much more of a distributive say too. I do predict that there will be more flagging though and in time, it will reshape the way people act on the platform and potentially make it a much healthier and realistic environment.
Going back to an online product review, those that have participated and given a negative review (1-2 stars) may have had an economic impact on the success of the company reviewed. Did it stop them giving a star? The problem is that people thing it is a "if you don't have something nice to say, say nothing at all", but that is not the case here. The idea of the wisdom of the crowd is to be able to trust in the negatives as well as the positives. If everyone keeps walking past the holes and not warning others there is a hole, people keep falling in.
While I do agree that there is a great deal of immaturity on this platform currently, we are also trying to build an environment where we can mature into a community and economy that has the capabilities to handle all kinds of abuse.
Ignoring it only gets us so far.
People act intentionally almost exclusively on incentive and currently, there is very little short-term incentive to clean up the environment and instead, there is an immediate cost to those who might. As I see it, the content evaluation is only one part of this, the more important side of it all is the development of maturity within the community - including around the discourse of delicate topics that people feel emotional about.
Taraz
[ a Steem original ]

I must admit there are a few abusers I would love to downvote but the retaliation threat is still in the back of my mind. I agree we can't let these accounts just carry on as if they own this place as it is not healthy.
Will see how it happens in the future.
I'd say that most people don't downvote a whale self-voting because they don't want their own posts to be revenge-downvoted. @haejin wasn't the only one, of course, but he must have destroyed a number of accounts and driven more than a few people off Steem himself.
My hope is that these potential changes, downvotes become a lot more common and the perception changes from a feeling of being personally attacked to an indication that the platform doesn't think the content and rewards line up.
I think these sorts of changes could improve the quality overall... so that's exciting!
Yep, it is self-preservation and there is no incentive for anyone else to get involved.
I hope this too.
At the very least, it opens up more games to play :D
You appear to have a lot of faith in this proposal @tarazkp. I'd love to join in with you and others, but my reading of it just doesn't get me there ...
Having made it through one year (so presumably I can now speak from at least a little experience), the fact there is currently no effective remedy for victims of downvoting / flagging abuse is my #1 frustration.
I don't see anything in this proposal that changes this. Anyone who decides to "step out there" and downvote a (much) larger account still has nothing stopping the "return fire" downvoting potential which can (and does) drive them out of active participation ...
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I have faith that what is now can be improved upon a lot but standing by in fear is not doing much :)
At the moent there is no incentive to join in as not only does it turn the spotlight on, there is no economic incentive to do so. Incentivizing flags brings balance.
Okay @tarazkp. Fear is not the issue. I just don't see anything to stop the almost inevitable retribution steps ... Especially, as you say, given the ... uhhh ... "immaturity" you cite "in here."
Just one man's opinion. That said, I'll be quite happy to learn there is something I missed, if the "powers that be" decide to forge ahead into another "adventure" in HF'ing ...
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The thing is that it there is no incentive for anyone to stop the abuse now (at least as most see it) and this includes the abuse of downvoting. Most of the stake isn't held by bad actors, but most of the stake wants to earn on their stake, not downvote at a cost.
Yes, understood. But that doesn't do anything to address the huge disparity in SP between the ... uhhh ... "players."
When one of them tells another one (seriously) - "you're going to need a lot more than 400K SP, if you're going to have any effect" ... well, that certainly puts 99.9(9)% of our fellow Steemians out of the picture ...
Anyway, I hope you're suggesting the "big boys" might have an incentive to "show up," with this new scheme. We'll see! 😏
I do @tasteem reviews and most definitely do give them all 5 stars though many of the others I see do.
As for the separate pool, is this really going to change things? Down-votes (flags) regardless of where the come from, (this other pool) will incite retaliation just as it does now.
We will have so see what pans out, but I personally don't expect much change.
It will incite retaliation at some level but I tihnk in time, it will balance quite a lot, especially if decent content producers start to emerge and earn.
I hope your right. There is so much crap content out there, it's unbelievable and with the rising price... they are all gonna come back soon.
yes and perhaps with some free flags it will force some of the communities to do a better job of self-regulation.
i think retaliation should be dealt with on a programming level.
it is super easy to spot, we could have a user report system (most know immediately after it happens), and folks that do it lose rights/abilities if they do it for a duration of time.
right now, there is no punishment, because those that have it happen too are often far to small of fish to make the waves necessary (and often downvoted anyway) to gain visibility and traction.
fulltimegeek saved my account, to bad he seems to be gone.. i made waves, but it wasn't easy, and I don't know that most would know how.
He is auto-spamming comments at the moment. Pity.
Sounds a lot like centralized authority :)
I think with the right incentive, the community will have a chance to dal with it organically. Right now, that incentive is a high cost.
The whole idea of retaliation for downvoting is definitely what scares off most people. Always saw it as a greater flaw of the system
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Yep, I have taken quite a few flags from some relatively large accounts that I caught plagiarising. The difference is that if the entire community is incentivized by downvoting, it will start to normalize. like @acidyo said on another post, "looking forward to a time that nearly every post has flags on it". It would mean that the ones that didn't really were great posts.
Time will tell as I have made only one downvote so far and it was today because of some nonsense towards me as well. I have mostly been of the thought to stay in my lane and avoid what I don’t like but a more controlled environment may be interesting.
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Yeah, I have mostly been the same but I have flagged for plagiarism and the like. I think if everyone takes a role where they are willing to be mostly positive and a little negative, the place will look better.
I'm generally easy and happy for experiments to happen. Do like the idea of different downvote pool, it's one of those things which I'm not sure why wasn't implemented at the start but then again I wasn't around at the start, maybe they didn't need it then?
As far as incentive to clean up goes, well I can kind of understand the lack of desire to downvote/flag. I don't go as far as to consider it "bullying" like some other people seem to (yay for weaselling XD) but would be pretty happy if I could obliterate potential earnings on plagiarism/art theft (which is most of what I'll downvote though I have downvoted tag spam in the past if I was in a grouchy enough mood) or at least put a serious dent in it without impacting my ability to do my preferred upvoting actions.
I think they needed it but didn't think of it and then, once it was going no one wanted to change it. Some of the largest accounts now were in that group of people.
with the curve, the higher the payout, the more damage done so there is not a great deal of incentive to buy votes for plagiarists as they will be obviously knocked down. I think there will be a normalization period but in short order, the change will do some good. If implemented of course.
Hm, well the only problem I can see with that is when you have random angry people randomly angrily downvoting things like the one that I've seen randomly pinging people for no apparent reason (guess they disagree with everyone's rewards and thinks no one should post anything at all? XD). Seems like that would sting a bit more :)
But dont you think we do already have a rating system? Its not 5 stars or 0.
Steem already allows percentage based upvotes. If you like my comment you can give it a 4 star upvote (ie 80% of voting power upvote).
Seems to me the need the search for a rating that rewards good and discourages bad is tricky and though Im glad we are talking about it, im not convinced this DV mana pool is the answer.
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But the percentage is all positive, just the values change. It isn't a rating system because there is no negative (incentivized negative).
If @Blocktrades gives you a "1-star rating" that is a 12 dollar vote. Is that a negative statement? All votes are positive.
When it comes to a 5-star system, it would have a weighting like, -2,-1,0,1,2 or similar. So if a 100% vote is a 5, a 0 vote is a 3.
Besides not everyone can regulate their upvote. Some vote 100% any time they vote. I am more concerned about abuse. Some would settle scores with flags just because they can not because the post deserved it. This is where maturity comes into play. But where there is a possibility of financial reward, do humans behave with maturity?
This is what we all have to learn to deal with in the future (now too) as it is where a great deal of suffering lives.
I agree with the above. If I get any percentage of a vote, I take that as a positive.... if someone votes me 10% one day, and 50% the next, the perception isn't that they liked my more recent content 5 times more, but that they are less active or less votey the second day... as I'm getting a higher percentage of their voting pie.
A platform needs a good and quaity content so that we need to follow the rules.
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There are no rules.
Welp it's sure as hell raining down votes on me lmao
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