If voting made a difference, they'd make it illegal... Wait.
Tomorrow, October 1st, is supposed to be the day on which the Catalans vote to leave Spain or stay part of it. However, the Spanish government declared the referendum to be illegal and so it is not allowed to take place. The first thought that came to mind when I read this was:
Source: Snopes.com
The referendum on Catalonian secession is a perfect example of this. Referenda on secession spark some interesting questions. Why are you not allowed to leave? If not, what makes a country legitimate and sovereign?
According to the United Nations, every people has the right to self-determination (strange that groups have this, but apparently individuals do not). If we take this as a legitimate notion - and let's assume Spain upholds the UN charter on human rights - what exactly is a people? Who determines when a group can be considered a nation?
If we look at the case of Cataluña, or Basque country, or the Donetsk Republic, or Crimea, it turns out that the government that is currently in power determines this. I have studied nationalism for a good amount of time and I am confident to say that most forms of nationalism are created and used by governments, not by the people themselves. It is a tool to bring people together, to make them feel that they have something in common, in order to get as many people willing to be governed under you. As many scholars have said: "Nationalism creates nations, not the other way around."
If you want to read more about this, consider reading at least the first of these books:
(Book titles are in italics)
- HARRIS, E. (2009). Nationalism: Theories and Cases. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press.
- HOBSBAWM, E. J. (1990). Nations and Nationalism since 1780. Cambridge: University Press.
- GELLNER, E. (1983). Nations and Nationalism. Oxford: Basil Blackwell Publishers.
- GELLNER, E. (1964). Thought and Change. Londres: Weidenfeld and Nicolson.
- ANDERSON, B. (1983). Imagined Communities. Londres: Verso.
No matter what your opinion is on the Catalan referendum, it says a lot about the Spanish government (and governments in general). States are like organisms that seek to grow in any way they can. It generally doesn't matter what the people think of this, as long as they don't physically fight back. The only reason for the state to exist is to maintain its power. If they didn't need to, they would dissolve naturally.
In my opinion, the Catalans should be allowed to leave if they want to. As a voluntaryist, I think that localization is at least one step towards bringing back the power from the state to the individual level. By secession the power will be brought back at least one level towards the individual. Although government would still be an agency of coercion, it is the least a people can do. Maybe more will follow, such as Basque country or Bavaria in Germany.
This is not an essay, but just some thoughts that came in my mind. I wanted to write them down and why not post them on Steemit to spark some more discussion.
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That is all mind game where elites thru that magic manipulation called election has convince us that we give our power to them. That is of course alie, but that is way I call election magic trick.
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Secession is a beautiful thing. It should continue all the way down to the local level. ;-) I'm not sure if Spain will let them leave without an actual fight. As other people have mentioned, the region is very wealthy. Spain is broke already. Losing that section will cause even more economic hardship. Those rich people have to pay! /sarc
You are wrong about wealth of Catalonia, they are completely broke and the rest of Spain is having to pay the local catalonian goverment so they can pay the salary of the public employees and services. Catalonia was a prosper community a long time ago, before the secessionist politicians arrived to the local goverment.
There a say in Catalonia that is very engraved on their personality "qui no plura no mama" which literally means "who doesn't cry does not breastfeed" or in other words, to get the money you have to cry and that is what they always do, crying to obtain more benefits that the rest of the spanish population.
Even so, the government of Spain and the Spaniards have been very patient and even, in an attempt to prevent them from becoming more angry and crying, has given them more money than they were entitled to by taking it away from other regions of Spain. But nothing is enough for the secionistas there is no other option but to apply the law with police and the army if necessary.
Well, that makes no sense at all. It's easy to prove too. If they were just crying for more milk, they wouldn't want to cut the breast off. They are broke and depend on mother Spain? If that's the case, why do so many people want to disown her? Something doesn't add up.
"But nothing is enough for the secionistas there is no other option but to apply the law with police and the army if necessary."
Ahh, yes... That's the problem with control freaks. They always want to use force to get their way. You're a vigilante for freedom, or that's a play on words and you're the opposite? It seems to me that you're arguing against freedom.
It makes sense but you need the full picture which you don't have obviously.
For more than 30 years the secessionist regional politicians have been in full control of education in Catalonia and in a constant campaign against the rest of Spain with absolute lies. I've lived there and I know what I talk about.
So with this indoctrination from very early age in the regional schools, with all the regional media controlled by the regional government (they even have a public censorship organisation that controls what it can be said in the media) the secessionist politicians have made many Spaniards from the region of Catalonia believe that the reason for their problems is the rest of Spain when the truth is that the real reason for their problems are the secessionist politicians.
So they want to cut the breast that feeds them because they have been convinced by the regional politicians that the breast is sucking from them, instead of them from the breast. Crazy, but that is what they have managed to do after more than 30 years of indoctrination.
It is not control freaks but enforcing international law, European law and Spanish law to defend democracy and real freedom, not the misrepresented freedom used by the secessionist regional government.
Why the secessionist politicians have done this? For the oldest reason in the world, power and money. They want to be the kings of their own little country by stealing the land of Spain, but they will never ever manage to do it because Spain has the law and the reason on its side.
Land of Spain? I believe the people living there would disagree. If they are such a burden to Spain, why not let them leave? If what you are saying is true, get rid of the cancer. 8-P
Some of the people in there (and not all) could say whatever they want but Catalonia is part of the land of Spain for thousands of years, that is fact and cannot be changed.
The secessionist has been indoctrinating the people in the region of Catalonia for more than 30 years with a false history. As result, many now believe those lies that were indoctrinated in from childhood and from that comes their wrong opinions and believes now. I've lived there and I've seen their delusion.
The cancer is the secessionist politicians and they will definitely get ridden off into very appropriate accommodation for them, jail cells for conspiracy to secession. That was the fate the last time the secessionist tried to steal part of the land of Spain and now it must be the same.
Why is your name Freedom Vigilante? It seems like you're not for freedom in the slightest. European law or Spanish law is not freedom since government is an institution that can only survival through coercion.
You story is very in depth, but it doesn't matter for the issue of secession. I don't agree with a lot of viewpoints that the Catalans may have, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to govern themselves. I know that the Catalan government won't tolerate individual freedom either, but at least the level of government will be brought down one more level towards the community and the individual.
That is the most important thing. It's not about who owes what to whom and who does better in the economy. Everyone should have the right to self-determination, regardless of the way in which this is exercised.
You are wrong, you don't know how fascist and xenophobes the secessionist politicians in the region of Catalonia are. I know, I've lived there. They do have a public entity for media censorship, you cannot go about Barcelona if a t-shirt when it is very hot in summer, you cannot do nudism in the Barcelona beaches, you cannot rent your home to whoever you want without paying the politicians, Catalonia right now are probably the most repressive politicians in Europe, and Europe, in general, is very repressive to start with.
The Spanish government is much more open and European, although they still have many things to learn from other countries.
Wow
"jail cells for conspiracy to secession"
I agree with @rvanstel, I don't get your name either.
Jailing someone, for wanting to be governed by someone else than the Spanish government seams very anti-freedom.
Please read my previous answers but basically, I'm for personal freedom, very small taxes (below 10%), complete freedom of speech, self-responsibility, no welfare state, right to own your guns, free market without any kind of regulation or interventionism, no central banks and small government whose only function should be to defend the people that elect them from external threats with the army and from internal threads with the police. A secession is an internal threat so police have to intervene and put them to jail and that fits completely with freedom because without a small amount of law it would be just the law of the jungle and that is not freedom.
"defend democracy and real freedom"
Democracy isn't "real" freedom -- it isn't even freedom. Freedom, defined as not having your rights -- to your person and property -- being invaded, is not at all what democracy offers. Democracy gives others the "right to vote" how your person and property will be invaded. It does this, by "allowing" laws to be enforced (e.g. your taxation to invade your property, and drug or sex laws to invade your person.)
To have real freedom, the individual's rights must be conserved and protected -- none of with democracy does.
I repeat what I have already said.
I'm for personal freedom, very small taxes (below 10%), complete freedom of speech, self-responsibility, no welfare state, right to own your guns, free market without any kind of regulation or interventionism, no central banks and small government whose only function should be to defend the people that elect them from external threats with the army and from internal threads with the police.
A conspiracy to secession is an internal threat so police have to intervene and put them to jail and that fits completely with freedom because without a small amount of law it would be just the law of the jungle and that is not freedom.
You defend freedom without defining it first. If freedom is not having your rights -- to person and property -- invaded, then you can't have a government, as that would be anti-freedom.
Laws are arbitrary preference rules by either "the people" or by an oligarchy/dictator, about what individuals can do with their body and property. It's inherently an invasion of those two basic human rights, thus anti-freedom.
Practically, common law (or jungle law, as you call it) can be peacefully developed through time, without need of central control (the government.) For instance, common law was that rules Ireland for many centuries, until Britain "civilized" them. But this empirical information is useless, as it doesn't matter if central law works better than "jungle law," only the latter respects basic human rights, and subsequently freedom.
You don't need to repeat your personal beliefs, but you can prove that violently imposing those belief on others, are respecting their freedom (of person and property.) An "internal threat" is just your opinion on how the world should be run, and you, by supporting it being unwillingly and violently imposed on others, are not respecting their rights and freedoms, but advocating for your own dictatorship.
It doesn't matter claiming you "support" personal liberties, if you wish for others (e.g. police) to harm people for doing something you disagree with (e.g. not paying taxes, generally disobeying unjust laws.) It's a complete contradiction.
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NO ONE ANYONE SHALL RELEASE. or call Putin, he is an expert.
STOP WAR . better listen to the song ------ Jefferson Airplane - Somebody to Love
Just more proof that:
As long as we are taxed, we are subjects, not citizens.
They are not allowed to leave because the Catalan region is rich and provides some 20% of Spain's GDP. I also wrote about what's happening there today and tomorrow, but didn't have time to go into economic details. Let's just hope the situation there will not escalate into violence.
Yes, Cataluña is a very important contributor to the Spanish state. I read and upvoted your post, it was really interesting to read about the comparison with Franco.
I don't think much violence will erupt to be honest. The police already have the situation "under control". They have occupied all polling stations, I believe.
Reminds me of the Confederate States, they were an important source of tax revenue for the federal government..
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter.
I consider your "non-essay" to be an outstanding essay. ;)
😄😇😄
Thanks! I've fixed the typo :) And thank you for reading!
You're quite welcome. Very nice to "meet" you here today. Looking forward to reading more... ;)
Nice to meet you too! Thank you for your interest. May I ask you how you found me?
Good question.
I think this article of yours may have been re-steemed by someone who I follow, and so it may have appeared in my feed?
Yes, that's exactly what happened...
You were re-steemed by @finnian... ;)
I upvoted your post for presenting your opinion on nationalism and secession rights. I would however ask if we can discern a grass root movement for separation vs separation movement instigated by a foreign government for that government gains. Hence your examples of Catalan people, Crimea and Donetsk may be apples and oranges, IMHO. Are Catalan people planning to join Portugal after the separation? What do you think?
You have a good point. Of course, Crimea wanting to join Russia is different from Catalonia wanting to become an independent country. However, I wanted to point out the reaction of governments to self-determination of a group of people in their country. Both Catalonia and, for example, Crimea held a referendum to decide the future of their country. Although the intent was different in the two cases, the reaction of the ruling governments was the same: they deemed it illegal.
Thanks for reading!
Have you checked your facts? Wasn't the Crimea referendum held AFTER the annexation from Ukraine, when it was defacto under the Russian government rule, the Russian troops on the streets? And the ruling government deemed it illegal?
I know it's Steemit, not NY Times, so anything goes, but... Thank you for reading my comment.
You're right. Russia had already occupied Crimea before the referendum took place. However, I'm referring to the de jure government that claimed sovereignty over the territory, not the de facto government that was empirically in charge. This doesn't change my argument: the government that supposedly should have had jurisdiction over Crimea deemed both the referendum and the Russian occupation illegal.
Thanks again for engaging!
It's ugly today... https://steemit.com/news/@yogi/helpcatalonia-this-is-how-catalan-citizens-are-treated-by-the-spanish-government-for-the-simple-fact-of-wanting-to-decide-and
Yes, it's horrible.