Let's talk about voting bots

in #steemexclusive5 months ago (edited)

Premise: Rewards + Audience is more valuable than rewards alone.


Introduction

During my years on the Steem blockchain, a consistently controversial topic has been the use of voting bots. Without wading too far into the controversy, I'll say that I'm generally in favor of automation, but it's important that it's done well. I'll also say that there are pros and cons for everything, so what I look for is not perfection - but continuous improvement.

For me, it's interesting to look back on how things have changed, and to wonder about what might come next. Informally, I think of the voting bots that have existed here in terms of 4 generations.

Generation 1 Self-managed bots

- These are/were bots, written mostly in python, that let a user automate their own voting with a program that they could run on their own computer (or cloud host). For the most part, these bots used simple criteria like the author and tags to decide what to vote for.

Generation 2 Voting trails

- For people without the computer resources or technical skills to run their own bots, websites and other services began to emerge where a single person would manage a voting bot and also use it to vote on behalf of other users. Typically, the person managing the list votes near the front of the line, which lets them collect extra curation rewards from the votes of all of the other accounts in the list.

Generation 3 Pay per vote

- The first one of these that I remember seeing was @randowhale. In the case of randowhale, the bot-user would submit a Steem post for voting - along with a payment, and the bot would give back a random vote. Later iterations in this generation align the payment size with the vote size.

Generation 4 Delegation bots

- Of course, we're probably all familiar with the current generation of bots that uses investor delegations (and sometimes also pay per vote) and currently dominates the trending list. With these bots, investors delegate to the bot, and they get a daily vote. Commonly, they also get a share of the bot's curation rewards.

Caveat - I don't have a whole lot of experience with the Gen-3 or Gen-4 voting bots, so this is written from an outsider's perspective, but that's how I think it works.

As far as I can tell, we've been stuck at Gen-4 for three or four years now. So, my problem with the voting bots isn't that they exist. I suspect that they're unavoidable. My concern is that they seem to have stopped innovating. Their investors should demand more.

This morning, I thought I'd try to take an objective look at some pros and cons of the Gen-4 voting bots and imagine what a Gen-5 voting bot might look like.

Gen-4 pros and cons

To me, it seems clear that the argument of whether these bots should exist is pointless. They do exist, and I can't imagine a scenario where they disappear in the near future, so instead of wishing them away, how do we make sure that everyone's interests are aligned? First, we take a clear-eyed look at the advantages and disadvantages, so that's what I'll try to do here (briefly, I am in a hurry today, unfortunately).

Advantages

  1. Immense nominal return for investors: I haven't run the numbers myself, but I've seen claims that bot delegators earn nominal returns on the order of 100% APR. I don't know if that's correct, but they certainly collect sizeable returns.
  2. Because of this immense ROI, the bots probably attract some investors.
  3. The bots certainly incentivize their delegators to HODL powered-up STEEM.
  4. Like it or not, it's proof of a successful business model on the Steem blockchain.

Disadvantages

  1. Earning maximum rewards requires a daily post. I would imagine that most investors would prefer passive returns.
  2. Because daily posts are required, and because the payouts are relatively high when compared to other blockchain content, the trending page is dominated by things that most people probably don't care to read.
  3. This likely drives away audiences that might enjoy reading other content here, if that content were allowed to reach the surface.
  4. Driving away audiences probably devalues the investment stakes that are sustaining the delegation bots. Remember, under advantages, I mentioned large nominal rewards. My suspicion is that the actual returns (after accounting for devaluation of the investor's stake) have been far worse than they might have been if interesting content were allowed to surface.

These lists are far from exhaustive, but since I'm in a hurry, I need to move on. Hopefully, I hit the highlights. So now, let's talk about the potential for a Gen-5 voting bot.

What would a generation 5 voting bot look like?

Off the top of my head, here are some of the characteristics that we'd like to see:

  • Large passive rewards for investors
  • Protects and increases the value of the investor's stake
  • Encourages creation of interesting content
  • Rewards authors who deliver an audience (i.e. impressions, views)
  • Does not require, or even encourage, daily posting of vacuous content

Impossible, right? I don't think so. I think that a bot-owner would just need to stitch together some already existing technologies in order to accomplish this. The things that are needed follow:

  1. View counters
  2. Beneficiary rewards
  3. A reward distribution scheme like the ones that are in use by Bitcoin's mining pools.

So, let's imagine a 2-dimensional voting bot that's supporting a stable of authors and also a pool of investors. The authors get paid in proportion to 2 factors: (i) the rewards on their posts; and (ii) the views on their posts. Simplistically, the stable of authors could just be anyone who posts through the bot-owner's web site. (Of course, authors can also be investors, and vice versa, but they don't have to be.)

Similarly, investors also get rewarded in proportion to two factors: (i) the rewards on all posts; and (ii) delegation size.

Now, the bot operator keeps a running tally of how much is owed vs. how much is collected, and they distribute it through the use of their own web site.

The (shall we say) "sponsored" authors post through the bot operator's web site (something like upvu.org). In this way, the bot operator can track their views and set their beneficiary percentages in order to distribute rewards according to the rules above. The reward distribution can be done using something like PPS or PPLNS.

There's some complex math to be done here, but that's what computers are good at, so I don't see it as overly challenging.

If the bot-owner doesn't want to set up their own web site, perhaps they could arrange to get the view count information from Steemit, but they'd need to rely on their authors to set the right beneficiary settings, which is an easy step to forget about.

If they do set-up their own web site, they could also harness the Visibility as a Service concept that I've discussed in the past, which might provide a secondary mechanism to protect and increase the value of the investor's stake.

Conclusion

Gen-1 harnessed automation.
Gen-2 harnessed curation rewards.
Gen-3 harnessed blockchain transfers
Gen-4 harnessed delegations, transfers, and curation rewards

For me, the key insight that Gen-5 voting bots need to harness is this. "author" rewards don't need to go to the author of a particular post. Through the use of beneficiary rewards and reward-sharing algorithms, beneficiary rewards can be redirected to investors or even to other supported authors, and rewards can be distributed in proportion to a healthier mix of factors.

By harnessing beneficiary rewards and audience metrics, I believe that Gen-5 voting bots could profit more and better align themselves with the interests of authors, investors, and audiences.

What do you think?

Update: See also, I Wonder If Bid Bots Can Be Made Less Harmful?, which was posted today by @o1eh.


Thank you for your time and attention.

As a general rule, I up-vote comments that demonstrate "proof of reading".




Steve Palmer is an IT professional with three decades of professional experience in data communications and information systems. He holds a bachelor's degree in mathematics, a master's degree in computer science, and a master's degree in information systems and technology management. He has been awarded 3 US patents.


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When I asked the question of the visibility of the respective views - click counters - in several places, the majority of wise people told me: it already existed (in this ominous Steem universe before my time ;-)) and was deliberately hidden. Precisely to make the automated voting behaviour a little more opaque...

The view counters did exist for a while. I always assumed that they were turned off because the numbers were so low, not necessarily to hide the automated voting. For example, it was sort-of strange to see a post with 5 or 10 views valued at $50 or $100.

Do you know who is permitted to make such addition...? Or who has the possibility...? These are such bohemian villages for me...

As far as I know, there's no way to measure views across all web sites & dapps, so each web site operator would need to implement their own. For steemit.com (which is what I was referring to above), it would have been Steemit, Inc. If I recall correctly, SteemPeak had measurements, too - but those measurements were only visible to the owner of the account. (It's been a while now, so I'm not 100% sure if I remember that right).

Overall, the view counter is something that is really needed and can be used to improve the ecosystem. It could be included in the reward formula so that a post with a high number of views would have some advantage in receiving rewards over a post with a low number of views.

In the case of bots, there is one obstacle. Investors will be where they will earn more. If the bot will give more rewards to the post that will have more views, then it is forced to give less rewards to the post with a small number of views. Then the investor posting the garbage will simply go back to the gen 4 bot where he can get the most out of his delegated SP. Although I have read that you propose a much more complex reward distribution scheme, I am not sure if it will attract investors. Everything is easy here, they will be where the rewards will be greater.

Overall, the view counter is something that is really needed and can be used to improve the ecosystem.

1-1-bbbs-1.jpg

Do you know why the view counter was removed years ago? Because otherwise someone, like me for example, would ask how it can be that an article with 20 views has 150 votes. I asked that question at that time. Result: Whales flagged my articles to zero. :)

Yes, I have already been told about the fact that uncomfortable questions arose because of the view counter 😆. But now, I think, different times have come and maybe it's time to change something.

In the case of bots, there is one obstacle. Investors will be where they will earn more.

Yeah, but my thinking was that if they actually support content that people want to read, their share of rewards will include organic votes + automated votes, not just the automated votes. So, (hopefully), this strategy would be the more profitable strategy for the investors. Could be wishful thinking, though. 😉

Advantages

  1. Immense nominal return for investors: I haven't run the numbers myself, but I've seen claims that bot delegators earn nominal returns on the order of 100% APR. I don't know if that's correct, but they certainly collect sizeable returns.

As you noted later this is not necessarily an advantage. DeFi coins with absurd APRs are considered worthless by many as the "return" is coming entirely from large inflation.

I believe that Gen-5 voting bots could profit more and better align themselves with the interests of authors, investors, and audiences.

I'm generally skeptical that the ecosystem can be saved, but maybe there would be a way to incentivize reading (I think Publish0X does something like this). Someone could have a website where it gives you N random recent steem posts and you rank-order them based on your view of their relative quality, then the website uses that wisdom-of-crowds info from multiple readers to direct votes at the best articles (with some beneficiary funds siphoned off to pay the readers).

I'm generally skeptical that the ecosystem can be saved

The thing that I can't understand is the number of fairly large investors who must know that their stake is being devalued and really don't seem to care. I think there are many possibilities to improve the ecosystem, but it requires motivation. Many of the people with large enough stakes to make a difference seem satisfied with the status quo, even though it's harming their own investments.

Someone could have a website where it gives you N random recent steem posts and you rank-order them based on your view of their relative quality, then the website uses that wisdom-of-crowds info from multiple readers to direct votes at the best articles (with some beneficiary funds siphoned off to pay the readers).

I like that idea. Reminds me of the ESP Game (which is gone now, but was amazingly addictive). I actually have something like that in mind for my next Java project if I ever get through my current project.

I think my next project will be a fairly simple 2 person game that will utilize Steem's content for the subject matter and use custom_json transactions for communications between the players.

Unfortunately, I don't have the ability to deliver significant upvotes to go along with it, though.

The thing that I can't understand is the number of fairly large investors who must know that their stake is being devalued and really don't seem to care.

I think it's a slumlord problem, eg in a run-down city every individual landlord sees it in their interest to do the bare minimum and simply extract value while waiting for everybody else to revitalize the town into a place that people want to live. The original vision of Steem assumed that "investors" would be incentivized to improve the value of the ecosystem as a whole as a way of improving the value of their stake. But in practice most "investment" has been a combination of speculation and rent-seeking -- why put in more effort, you already did the chain a favor by tying up your wealth in the coin, now it's the chain's turn to do nice things for you.

Yeah, but in this case, I think the investors are the tenants and the bots are the landlords. I don't get why the investors aren't pressuring the bots to get better. i.e. "I want my daily rewards and you should work to increase the value of my stake, too!" Maybe some "activist investors" need to start delegating? 😉

trending page is dominated by things that most people probably don't care to read.

One of the disadvantages that I can truly understand and relate to.

However, I believe this is not a mainstream social media platform where only catchy videos and glittering glamour are seen and liked, although a lot of garbage gets viewed on a daily basis.
I don't know how I will ever be able to steer my kids away from the trend of watching these stupid, utter garbage reels.

In my eyes, Steemit is kind of a sophisticated literary medium with a quest for reading quality content in the form of entertainment. So, it's a mix of content and sophisticated technology. No matter how much we dislike the use of bots and automation, I think it's embedded deep in the matrix of this medium and maybe the fuel for keeping this engine running.

As I compare other social media platforms with Steemit, it may take a good 2-3 minutes to read and understand this post of mine, whereas you can scroll through those reels and photos in maybe 10-15 seconds or even less on the other platforms. So yes, I think automation in some areas is inevitable if not required in terms of time saving.

Having said that, I'm really confident that good content will shine on its own! Automation or no automation...

Having said that, I'm really confident that good content will shine on its own! Automation or no automation...

I think this is true, too. People on other platforms put in months and years of hard work building their audience and sharing their own content before they eventually hit the monetization tier (and how many burn out and give up before getting monetized?). Steem actually has a lower barrier to entry than most other platforms. If someone produces good content and does the same legwork that content producers do on other sites, I'm also confident that their content will stand out.

It's easy to lose sight of that, so thank you for raising that point.

I think this is true, too. People on other platforms put in months and years of hard work building their audience and sharing their own content before they eventually hit the monetization tier (and how many burn out and give up before getting monetized?)

True, very true

Have you ever observed there are sometimes purchased comments and likes under the quick popularity videos/content? The life of such content is really short-lived. It eventually fades away after a burst of energy. In contrast, valued content, no matter how slow the progress, continues to live a long life.

This is an off topic debate from your very technical blog ;)
Apologies for steering away from the main agenda!

Have you ever observed there are sometimes purchased comments and likes under the quick popularity videos/content?

I never noticed that. I do know that there are markets out there where people can buy followers, though.

View counters

There was once a view counter.
I left a comment to o1eh about it here.

About that "quality thing" for users who have a hard time finding good content, who are regularly disappointed because they think articles with high payouts must be good, I commented here in this article, which you mentioned later in your post.

This is especially relevant for visitors who come from outside of Steemit and know nothing about this system.

Sorry for link dropping, but I'm not a fan of c&p of already existing content. :)

Yep. I remember the view counters. My suspicion was always that they took it away because so many posts had high payout values and low view counts. You could be right that it also had to do with the disconnect between views and numbers of votes.

The major drawback for view counters is that they can only measure the views through a particular front-end, so Steemit's view counter wouldn't reflect views through any other interfaces front ends (and vice versa). But in the context of a voting bot, I think it makes sense to incorporate into reward distribution, since the goal would be driving traffic to their own front-end.

it also had to do with the disconnect between views and numbers of votes.

I am pretty sure that this is the main point.

Another problem is that such a counter has to be very sophisticated. I don't know how to program such a counter, but I know very well how to manipulate it. :D

By the way. Off topic. If you are still active on Linkedin. Your website links from Steempeak lead to nowhere ;)

If you are still active on Linkedin. Your website links from Steempeak lead to nowhere ;)

Thanks! I'm not really active there, but I'll try to make some time to go clean that up. I hadn't even realized they were out there. Sad how different things could've been...

but I'll try to make some time to go clean that up

Linkedin is like Xing. You don't have to be that active yourself. The headhunters will find you. ;) It's good if your profile is up to date and doesn't contain any dead links. With luck, someone will offer you a job with twice the salary for half your current working hours. Miracles happen all the time. :)

I hadn't even realized they were out there. Sad how different things could've been...

Word! Unfortunately, a lot of projects died after the fork. Some have gone to Hive and some have closed their project.

The community itself was responsible for the "disappearance" of Generation 3 with the #newsteem. The result was satisfactory in my eyes, but the flag wars were extremely unpleasant.
There was at most a verbal uprising against Generation 4. These providers became powerful too quickly, the temptation to achieve a large ROI with little effort was too great - regardless of community interests other than their own.
I also think that they don't want to "destroy" them (there's a lot of talented developer brains behind them), everything has its pros and cons. But everyone should be open to constructive suggestions for change, without condemning one side or the other.

I think your suggestion is very constructive. It may sound complicated at first glance, but it should be feasible.
The only question I have is how manipulable the counter variant would be. Could it be that this is precisely why the counter was once abolished?

The community itself was responsible for the "disappearance" of Generation 3 with the #newsteem. The result was satisfactory in my eyes, but the flag wars were extremely unpleasant.

I agree with this. I think the flag wars also drove a lot of people away. I was never sure which was "the lesser of two evils".

I also think that they don't want to "destroy" them (there's a lot of talented developer brains behind them), everything has its pros and cons. But everyone should be open to constructive suggestions for change, without condemning one side or the other.

Exactly. Several of the Gen-4 bot teams have made positive contributions in other ways (especially upvu that I'm aware of). There are one or two that I'm suspicious of, but I think the dominant ones actually do want the ecosystem to succeed.

The only question I have is how manipulable the counter variant would be. Could it be that this is precisely why the counter was once abolished?

Yeah, that's definitely a point that would need careful attention. I'm sure that a lot of effort has gone into view counting technologies, so I imagine it should be possible to implement, but I honestly don't know. I guess there would be a perpetual cat & mouse game to be played with fraudsters...

I guess there would be a perpetual cat & mouse game to be played with fraudsters...

As with every new development... 🤦‍♀️
Well, they are a bit useful though: they help to identify and plug holes in the system... 🤷‍♀️

Вы правы, создатели ботов для голосования обленились. Но мне страшно, куда еще они могут развиться. :)

You're right, the creators of voting bots are lazy. But I'm afraid of where else they might develop. :)

A living person is also a bot.
Does only what was “taught in school”
And he does stupid things.
A bot program is better than any living person. Even the worst program is better than the best dumbass.

A bot program is better than any living person.

At some things. Not always the things that are useful or valuable to living people, though.

I'm not comparing "usefulness"
I compare "quality"
People are bots. Stupid bots.
And the higher the “level of civilization” of people, the more stupid they are.
This is clearly visible on Steemit. The dumbest people here are not "bots".

Can views be gamed? IE the number inflated via bots or some other method? I was under the impression it was done away with in the past because it was being gamed... though I can't recall for certain. Other than that, I think what you mentioned (or an iteration) of your suggestions mentioned above could be a great idea.

Well, maybe it's not perfect, but Twitter and YouTube pay based on impressions, so I guess there's got to be a "close enough" way to measure it.

I really like this idea a lot...

https://steemit.com/hive-127586/@peppermint24/s5ix2c

It is the simplest, cleanest, and doesn't involve trying to change user behavior. The only problem is whether or not we can get any development done on Steemit.com?!

Yeah, there have been several posts recently about the possibility of hiding the vacuous content. If it's a choice between that and the status quo, I'm in favor of it. But yeah, I'm not sure how likely it is for Steemit or any of the other existing front ends to implement a change like that. And I still think it would be preferable if the bot operators would innovate a solution that doesn't require daily posting at all, at least for the long term.

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