Helsing: All whales requested | Discussion
@fulltimegeek is going on an expedition to Slay a Cave Troll but, he should not be going alone.
A few weeks ago I made a post about Helsing: The Vampire killer, something I have thought quite a lot about before I created the post as, it is risky. If you haven't read the post, please do but basically:
Helsing is a VERY HIGH STEEM POWER account that only cares about returning value back to the pool for better distribution and could be used in many, many ways, some automated, some manual.
The exact details need to be sorted out, the way it behaves need to be discussed, the guidelines set, but not in stone. It needs to be experimental, refined, honed, tuned and developed. It needs, SUPPORT.
But not any support, Whale and Orca support ONLY
Here is why.
It is going to target the largest and the smallest scammers, plagiarist and pool rapers on the platform, it is going to clean the seas and return the value back to the content creators and the invested.
The problem now is if a large abusive account is attacked by the community, that account will target and destroy the smallest of the soldiers, smashing their earnings, stealing their reputation. We have seen this already, as well as their little army of bots and the insane doing their dirty work. Helsing cares not about such things, and here is why.
Helsing Specs.
The 200 highest staked accounts delegate 0.5-1% of their total value to Helsing.
Steemit delegates 0.5-1% of its total value to Helsing.
The amount is small and barely affects earnings of those accounts but, the power of Helsing becomes immense and will return much more to the pool than what is lost by the delegation. It will be the largest account besides Steemit and it will be a community owned initiative.
By spreading the risk, it means that no one account such as @berniesanders or @fulltimegeek can be held accountable and targeted and it does not rely on community support, only whale support. If an account chooses to target a delegating whale, the whale still has at least 99% of its voting stake to fight it, as do the 199 other whales to come to the aid. I have talked about Steemit being a 'Musketeer Coin'. It is time to stand up and go 'All for one, one for all'. We are a community, our future depends on us acting as one.
Why would the whales delegate?
- They are interested in better distribution
- It shows they are truly invested in the community and success
- It demonstrates their willingness to act
- It gives an experimentation tool for development like the ones @smooth runs
- It costs almost nothing to support
- It frees up large amounts of the pool
- It has very little effect on day to day whale activities
- The whales stand to gain the most by Steem's success because of stake
- It protects their investment by protecting the weaker
Yes, there are risks that need to be sorted out for governance and I have several ideas that already look at that and, many more will come as discussions get under way. But, to start, I need some help, I need some support, I need ears. Helsing needs WHALES.
I know that there are slack channels where the devs and witnesses speak and discuss all kinds of ideas. Can someone please throw this into the pool of conversation for some consideration? The idea has merit, it will have the power to do many jobs and help out many current projects like @steemcleaners.
The last beauty of Helsing is this. If it doesn't work well, if it is too damaging, too rough, or gets too controlling. It can be dissolved in seconds as it is delegated power only. It will never earn curation, it will never own any stake, it will never care.
To kill Vampires and Cave Trolls, you need a monster killer. Create Helsing, show no fear, show you care.
Taraz
[ a Steemit original ]
These ideas always come with risks, putting them into the community does too but, it needs to happen.
I admit that you are making the case in a very appealing manner. Still, you are basically asking to build a central authority that is supposed to make subjective calls on content quality and user behaviour. And by this, to deal with the symptoms of the rewards distribution logic (n linear) that was introduced with HF 19. I would rather like to see the logic of the reward distribution changed and thus the incentives set right.
I agree, it is some kind of authority but a community backed one. The problem with going back to non-linear is the added incentive for bidbot growth isn't it? It is no longer an organic system or free market, it is highest bidder wins, vote trader wins. It is looking much more like a corrupt government supporting pyramid schemes. I am not a technical/algorithm based person, I watch behaviours and the behaviours here don't seem conducive to longterm success. I don't mind too much as to what actually happens but what is going on now leads nowhere different to where the world economy is now, in the hands of a very small few.
On my phone with a sick baby here, hard to go deeper at the moment.
I'm also not an algorithm guy but to boil it down to something quite evident, n linear incentivized selfvotes. Not just for the top of the pyramid but basically for everyone with just some stake at his disposal. Now, with the introduction of delegation everything was set for bid bots and SP leasing. So you can now either rent SP to milk self-vote return or lease-out SP with a kick-back that equals self-vote return. So my point is, before trying to neutralize this behaviour with a central authority I would rather remove the mechanics that enabled it in the first place.
I wouldn't advocate to switch back to n square, yet the factor community approval was much more important back then. Even a single whale vote was not so significant as long as nobody else joined in.
Stake-weighted community approval was the logic that really excited me, we don't have that anymore. Now it is stake-weighted self-votes (using own or leased SP, or other sort of deals)
Finally, in terms of curation rewards, for me as a manual curator, the best thing I can do economically is to pick 10 random posts per day that are older than 30 min and stand at 0.0 $ payout and vote them with 100%. In contrast, while we had n square it was absolutely worthwhile to be the first in digging out popular content. I'm manually curating now since 1.5 years, but the fun of it is just away. I still feel obligated to do it, but it gets harder and harder for me to convince myself.
All the best for your baby!
Cheers!
Yes. It is insane. I have paid delegation at a price where I need to self vote about 40% to get it back. I SV about 30 or so. But, I am able to spread the 70 relatively wide on posts and comments. Many delegations are so expensive to return it is in the 90s but, human greed always wants 'maximum' return doesn't it... regardless of the harm to others.
The bid bots are being paid for their stake in the pool but, it comes at no cost to themselves at all. At least with the delegation, they must give up ownership to the pool temporarily. It is a disaster for community, content based development.
Sad isn't it? Better curation still is if they then pay a bidbot to follow you....
Thank you. My wife is with her now so i have a few minutes.
I don't have the answers here but working within the current system, this is a temporary solution to a few fundamental problems. Perhaps it would give some better insight into how to deal with these things in future hardforks.
We have an opportunity to change at least on platform a broken economic system yet, we are behaving identically to those who taught us. Can we do any better? At the moment, it seems unlikely.
I can relate 100 % with these sentiments. I observe and analyze behaviors too. Things don't look good, short or longterm.
We can't have whales abusing the system like @haejin is
The incentives are very important of course and dictate behaviour. At the moment, the incentives are to vote buy and sell regardless of quality and trade votes in the highest staked circles. How to incentivise good behaviour when those supporting, facilitating and benefiting from the poor behaviours are many of the ones to make the decisions? In your own curation travels, you must see some sights.
Who holds Helsing accountable? In fact, who is Helsing? How does Helsing decide?
Why not apply the same delegation principle but to one of the already existing projects in the niche? Steemcleaners also do operate manually, very often even. Abuse can be reported to them via multiple channels. Upon which they act or don’t, complete while leaving discussion open.
Because it can be used for other purposes outside of the scope of Steemcleaners or any narrow project. It could lay dormant when not needed with reduced delegation and powered up as required. It could be used to play in Trending and run experiments or keep some of the whales inline just out of sheer size and purpose. Yes, governance needs to be discussed and I do have some ideas for it and I do think even better ones will come.
Your genius disturbs me :O! This idea is perfect and with proper support will hopefully achieve its goal. An idea could be linking it to the @cheetah account which determines plagiarism, and possibly creating another big bot with some sort of algorithm to determine RPR’s(reward pool rapists). Furthermore, Steem cleaners most likely has some sort of list with continuous spammers which could be routinely down voted by this...
whale, abomination.This has to be the greatest idea on Steemit since unpegged SBD. Best of luck gaining support, wish I could help but alas I am nothing more than a scrawny minnow. Good Luck!
I'd be wary of linking to the @cheetah account as not all of what it catches is plagiarism. Sometimes it's just that the quote is a bit big and often it's work people have on other sites that they want to share on here.
The question I have with this: Why do the whales need a seperate account for this? Can't they form something like "the elite squad" where they come together in let's say a discord channel and can vote on what behavior can be tolerated and what has to be flagged? The positives remain the same: The risk of getting punished is minimal since all members involved use 1% of their SP, hold 99% to fight back and the group is there to support if needed. Besides, in this system you wouldn't have the problems of finding a good, reliable system/person who operates the Helsing-account in an ethical way. What am I missing here?
The problem is that it hasn't happened as herding whales to work together is harder than wrangling cats. There have been a few attempts to collect a group but the groups have not been powerful enough and as I said above, the smallest were attacked very heavily and most went un-rescued. This way, it is still community backed by individuals stake and dissolvable.
Wow wow wow...I have seen this posted by two people already but never understood what they were talking about. With your post I have gotten the drift and I must say that this is a very good initiative. I have wondered myself, if one Super whale begins to misbehave in the system, who puts him in check. I don't like the idea of one person policing the affairs of steemit as it tends to go against the decentralized nature of the platform ....big ups to the brains behind this idea .
This is a really good idea,Helsing would be like a policing thing watching out for the bad dudes but the good thing is it would be community owned. Good initiative guys
So much fun to watch Steemit develop from a blog spot to a community and now a budding government.
We're having a problem with emerging oligarchs and so you propose a 1 percent tax (temporary as all taxes are initially claimed to be) on the 1 percent to insure just distribution to the workers. This is very noble and a wonderful idea and probably would work for quite awhile and make Steemit a much more contributor-friendly platform.
My worry is that it's a slippery slope. Who is the "decider" and who decides who the decider will be? Define "quality" for me. We'd need some form of "constitution" that laid out the new rules of conduct. It becomes a power structure with a money pool and something like that always attracts those who would elevate themselves at the expense of others. I fear it would simply become a reflection of the world at large: a virtual "nation" following the pattern of the most powerful political regimes that occupy our blue planet.
Worth a try, though. It'd be fun to see where it eventually led.
I agree with you, but on the current path it is inevitable anyway as people are acting on learned behaviours of a broken system. This however has a chance to possibly retrain and rehabilitate and if it fails and those who abuse do, the pool dries up for all as no one is bound to Steem as they are to their imaginary nations and government dictators.It really is ours to screw up and if we let those who don't care for the future rule the roost, it won't take long.
...it does sound like fun though, doesn't it :D
That's a very good idea. I hope it gets picked up.
it would be the greatest experiment to run since steemit itself.
I hope we'll actually see it happen. There is a lot to think about, but I think it has a lot of potential to do what it's meant to do.
Soz if I'm being a bit dim - but does this account actually exist or is it hypothetical?
Great idea btw! I've notice FTG is already getting flagged which saddens me!
It doesn't exist... yet. It needs a lot of thought and backing by the most influential people on the platform. It would work though.
FTG will survive, he knows what he is getting himself into.
That explain's a lot tarazkp. Iv seen a few people getting hassle off whales and when i clicked the post it was blocked it was really weird. It was like a cry for help then silenced. Still getting used to steemit so wasnt sure what it was all about, didnt know this type of stuff went on. It would be great if there was something in place to stop it happening as its pretty scary someone having so much power and using it the wrong way. Another really informative post. Thanks tarazkp for looking out for the steemit community x