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RE: Steemit: The Anti-Social Network
Accounts can be created in many different ways with various results and the amount of transactions is still changing.
By the way, I'm told if an account signs up via SteemIt this is not the results they would expect to see.
I'm still sorting out my opinions on this, but it would be helpful to know where and how you set up the new account.
This is an important point to remember - that the user/company/project creating the account will be able to ensure whether the created account has enough SP/RCs to interact on the blockchain.
An account with zero SP obviously won’t be able to do much...but it also isn’t how accounts are typically created for new users. The original post is simply showing that SteemMonsters’ account creation service is inadequate for more “normal” social media use, and probably by design. As far as I can tell, their service is simply provided to card collectors as a means to collect their cards via the game’s interaction with the Steem blockchain. Maybe in the future they can consider delegating or offering upgraded packages that include more SP/RCs.
In any case, it isn’t necessarily a problem with RCs or the system. It’s just an issue with this particular service. I think the post is overly dramatic, considering that it’s about a zero-SP account.
What were the expectations for such an account? Resources cost money. Free accounts are a net drain on resources. Somebody is paying the cost for a user’s “free” interaction.
Complaining about getting a free account from a game’s package-deal and threatening to quit the platform over it is a little absurd, in my opinion. It should be made clear to readers that this is not a situation that most new users will encounter.
First of all I was unaware of the difference between this account and the one provided by Steemit. (I didn't read through the 500 page manual to understand all the intricacies of this place yet)
Second, I have read the response by @ned and @whatsup and did take the time to thank them for clarifying the fact that the @steemmonsters account is the bare minimum and has nothing given to it to help people use it (like Steemit does with their free accounts).
Third, the concept of even having a social network is you want people to communicate. Of course it costs money, that's called a business. If you want to have a business that consists of a social platform, then you should not complain that the users of the system cost money. ALL SOCIAL PLATFORMS ARE FREE TO COMMENT ON.
Fourth, I bought the @steemmonster package to see what a new account would go through. I PAID $10 to get the account this way. So while Steemit Inc might be so gracious as to loan people enough RCs to make 10 whole comments a day, I'm sure that there will be many that do as @steemmonsters has done and just give the bare minimum. (PS I don't think they did this out of malice, but they haven't read the 500 page user manual either so they can operate through this complex web of rules to follow)
Fifth, what I find absurd is that you jump to the conclusion that me pointing out a FACT means that I have threatened to quit. I did no such thing. I merely pointed out the truth of what I witnessed with my own eyes.
Finally, the condescension that you show here is exactly what makes people have disdain for the whales. Instead of taking the time to point out where I was wrong and having a civil discussion, you basically resorted to calling me "cheap" and "petty" with this line:
You are an arrogant ass for that comment and I have just removed my vote for you as a witness. I don't threaten anything, I just do what I feel is right. And while I might have thought you were a straight shooter in the past and voted for you as a witness, I now see that you have the same problems of the other "elites" here (arrogance).
One day you will find that maybe there's a reason why successful businesses talk to their customers and learn how they feel about the product. Until that day though, you can just keep thinking you are superior to us little newer guys trying to "figure it out".
PS. It is not my job to make this place easy to operate. I will clarify always my opinions and beliefs. I have no plans to create disinformation or to hurt anyone. But maybe people like you should go around and help people to understand things better (since you've read the manual), rather than hurl insults about us being "cheap" and "petty".
Yabapmatt and agro are higly ranked witnesses here, if they don't know how this place works then I'm a little worried about the future of steem.
Just to clarify: I think they do know how this place works and have read the manual. I think they made a business decision to create 0SP accounts because it was cheaper for them. I could be wrong.
You got off easy, I was called being a "little bitch, chastised, and a post made for open public flogging of me. lol.
hahaha... yes I got to see the fangs exposed, but never got biten! I guess I should be happy :D
I guess they haven't figured out that to much ego tends to kill talent.
Agreed... And when the talent goes quietly... then the big egos say "I wonder what happened? Somebody should've told me" (lol)
Can you now update the post to reflect where and how you created the account. I get that it was an honest mistake and I know there is a lot of information out there.
This post is currently adding to the FUD.
It would be more factual to say people signing up via Steem Monsters might have this problem.
I am sure you are aware that various Apps might choice different ways to create and fund accounts, so blanket statements will be spreading misinformation.
I have updated the post. Please look at it and see if it meets your suggested level of disclosure. I am willing to do more edits if you feel them necessary. Thanks.
Looks great. :)
I will do so for sure, and get it done this evening! Thank you again for helping with some clarification. I have also contacted @steemmonsters witnesses too to get this resolved.
@ats-david that's true indeed and you state valid facts.. However, this is still a huge fail and I'll explain why.
You landed here from another site such as Google
You haven't heard of the steem blockchain before.
You find steem monsters appealing and purchase the starter set. You join the discord and start competing in the giveaway posts hoping you will earn some free cards
You are blocked after creating 3 comments for some epic card giveaways because you have 0sp after creating an account on steem monsters official website
Scratch head and abandon card's and steem account after a negative experience
Will our new accounts on kickstarter be created via the same method? Let's hope the bugs are ironed out before this
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right.
But at the same time, steemmonsters is a privately owned business. They should make things clearer on what you're getting for your money.
I don't think steem monsters Inc intentions are having accounts you can't use?
What's the point of that? If anything it's bringing new users to steem and good for steems ecosystem
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Depends on how you define use.
From what I've seen the costs for customer JSON opperations are very low (This is how steem monsters works) So it would be reasonable that a privately owned business only creates accounts that are capable of being readily used on their site. But if you want to do more with them then you'll have to actually buy some steem and power it up.
Assuming it has a few starters the first guide will be how to sell your first steemmonsters card to fund your account so you can use steemit and not play the game lol... Without a foundation of reasonable interaction no one will stick around.
It’s at this point that you should find answers to any questions and assistance with any issues. That’s the job of the game/interface owners to explain to their new users. It would be irresponsible of them to collect money for account creation and not explain the limitations of the accounts. If they are truly free accounts, they should still explain how the system works.
Regardless, it isn’t a problem with RCs.
Agreed and excellent points and information here.
Thank you @whatsup for getting to the bottom of this particular issue. I did get a response from @ned and have since contacted @yabapmatt so that @steemmonsters can duplicate what Steemit does with the new accounts. Your intervention was useful and I appreciate it!
@davemccoy - thanks for highlighting your struggles here, I learned something in the process and after speaking with other witnesses I have made this post outlining the options as I see them currently for creating accounts, plus my thoughts on it all.
awesome @ura-soul... I will go check out that post right now! I appreciate it! All information is helpful right now so that we can shed some light on things and get to the truth!
well done!
thanks @dj123 :)
I set the account up via @steemmonsters. They give a new account when you join their game with the purchase of a starter pack. I hope you do contact @yabapmatt and find out if his signup process produces any different types of accounts than the regular steemit accounts. I think they would want people to use the platform to at least be able to play the game, so if its different then he should know about it. There will be a lot of unhappy people in a week if they did it wrong. But my thinking is they did it right and these are the new Steemit rules for what an account looks like when its set up. And I paid $10 to have the privilege to comment/post an average of once a day. I do hope you dig into this @whatsup, because if we don't get the older veterans to pay attention this place will become a ghost town with these rules.
The process you’ve gone through is different from Steemit.com’s. Steemit’s includes a delegation for active users, with de-delegation in case the account spams or deactivates. Re-Activated accounts are re-delegated.
@ned do you expect apps built on the steem platform to be able to delegate to every new account they create, or send new users to steemit to do the same? The solution of the discounted account creation tokens in HF20 is great, but it's worthless if that is not sufficient to reasonably transact.
I'm not aware of any apps on the platform right now other than Steem Monsters that even create accounts for users let alone delegate additional SP. I think that fact really highlights the problem and I think everyone here would be very interested to hear what the plan / expectation is for Steem apps to onboard new users.
It’s a massive innovation that an account with no holdings may transact (there’s no other chain with functionality like this) and another that many have access to creating these accounts (with Account Credits derived from Resource Credits). More apps can now tap into the account creation process.
As for where we go from here — entitlement to high number of social platform level transactions is very high. So this is a sensitive topic. Case study, though: Reddit limits these transactions quite a bit, much more than instagram, Twitter and FB.
To deal with this we can approach it a few ways:
Posted from my iPhone. Please excuse mistakes, ommisions and grammatical errors.
I definitely agree, and sorry if i glossed over that in my original comment. The RC system and discounted account creation system are a fantastic innovation and you and your team deserve a lot of credit for that.
My point is simply that, if new accounts aren't able to reasonably transact, then it doesn't really matter if more apps can tap into account creation because account creation isn't really what they are after, it's user activity and interaction.
In my opinion, a new account should be able to reasonably transact without additional SP or RC delegation. We, as a community, can decide what exactly constitutes being able to "reasonably transact", but I think most of us can agree that we currently do not meet that definition.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if the top witnesses were to increase the account creation fee, then that would increase the "minimum RCs based on account", right? So if we, as a community, agree that 15 SP worth of RCs allows a new account to "reasonably transact", then I think that's what the account creation fee should be set to.
Assuming that accounts created using a discounted account creation token would also have 15 SP worth of minimum RCs then I think this solves the problem. Apps can now tap into the account creation process using their invested SP and the accounts they create will have enough RC to reasonably transact without additional SP delegation.
Yeap I’m with you — now it’s time to iterate this functionality to greatness. Once delegated RCs are in play, the delegations can be much more liberal as there is no explicit economic loan (SP (voting power) delegation) that can be abused
I don't understand why people don't seem to understand this aspect of RCs. The system will allow the community and Dapps to be much more autonomous and be able to support their communities and, limit abuse heavily.
I haven't been this excited about Steems future since I started. The RC system is potentially brilliant once the delegations and infrastructure are in play. Good job mate.
I hope you are right. The part there that is missing for some people (like me) is the "once the delegations and infrastructure are in play"... Of course we all want to see the place succeed, so the sooner that happens the more we can all row the boat touting the wonders of Steem and Steemit too.
Wonderful suggestion mate, i am a fan. Good to see you up and running after the kidney stone surgery. Stay safe friend on the otherside.
I would suggest that you increase the account creation fee by a week or two worth of RCs for minimum human function - which won't make much cost difference there - and transfer them to the new account on signup, in much the same way Steem was under the previous system.
That wouldn't enable spammers as much as a full bump to the account's maximum and recharge rate, but would allow it to transact for its first week or two while it earned a few Steem to get it moving on its own.
What is the average number of comments a day a non-spam account can expect to be able to comment? How long will it take a new steemit generated account to recharge their mana? Do we know a SP amount yet that makes comments unlimited? It is hard for me to figure out as all of my features are unlimited at this point and my mana bar does not move regardless of what I do.
This knowledge will help know how much delegation to help new accounts out with.
@ned any idea yet or is it all still reworking itself?
Ok cool... I will explain that to @yabapmatt because I'm sure that's something he would like to know. I'm sure they don't want people signing up through @steemmonsters having this kind of experience.
Thanks for the reply @ned.
hey it better than the time dan responded to me :P
Didn't even respond back :(
lol... I know the feeling for sure ;)
After reading through all the comments and seeing the equivalent of the 15 SP that gets delegated and what that tiny delegation can do, I would like to tell you that it is certainly better than what I just witnessed through the @steemmonster account. But, I also want to say it is still not enough for the new user to have a meaningful experience. (1 post and 10 comments if I read it correctly)
I think that delegating enough RCs to give them 10 comments and a post is better than this experience of doing basically nothing... but you should realize that people are going to bump into those limits quite quickly and the user experience from a newbie perspective will still be a turnoff. I hope you will consider adjusting the numbers higher and then having a quicker "take back" if its not used properly (ie spam or inactivity).
I think 1 post and 10 comments is a great level for a new user. Just fyi, it's all in the opinions. Also if the content creator is talented they could look for a delegation or sponsorship.
Why buy a cow if the milk is free? lol
We will see if you are right, I know I and the people I speak with would disagree strongly. I guess you will tell by the user statistics. I just hope you don't lose too much credibility in the process of finding the right balance. If it were me, I'd err on the side that makes people not notice that there is a restriction... but its not me so I will watch with you and see how the results come out over time.
And the cow and the milk analogy is a good analogy that fits perfectly with the thinking of the veterans of this place I know. The issue I have with it though, is it assumes that Steemit is a premium platform. I would've agreed with you for the last 10 months, but if you restrict commenting (ie free speech) then I think this place goes from a premium site to a place where only a niche of investors use it. To me its a shame, but I hope I wrong!
I agree it is complicated and not all are going to agree on anything.
The risks you mention are real! The balance is we have a HUGE blockchain making it difficult for exchanges, witnesses, etc. to manage. Every transaction has a real world cost that everyone with stake is paying for.
When you say... YOU. You say we. :) I don't have any more influence on these decisions than you do. I just try to understand and help communicate.
:) on the "we" comment... That is one of the nicer things I've heard lately! :P
And I understand the balance is an issue, I hope that whoever is in charge takes the time to read this post's comments. The frustration is real and even if its based on lack of information, it still is a negative overall nonetheless.
And you are doing a great job of helping to understand and communicate. I wish we have some people at the top that were just like you. If you want a job, I can campaign for you to get the role of "Customer Relations"... ;)
But how many minutes, hours, days, weeks a new user has to wait to create new account????. Where is the Velocity?
Many of us are here after a year under the old account creation rules, many more will follow.