RE: Downs Syndrome Has Been Eliminated in Iceland. But was it Ethical?
A woman (with the man's input if she chooses) has the right to have or abort any child she chooses. I support a woman's total right to choose. It doesn't matter if the baby has Down Syndrome or if the baby is 100% healthy; if the mother doesn't want it for whatever reason, so be it.
I do think that it's totally fine to have a baby with Down Syndrome. Having interacted with others who have mental, physical, learning, etc. disabilities, I think differently about quality of life. While a person with Down Syndrome may not have the life you would desire, I'm sure that there are plenty of people with Down Syndrome who enjoy the life that they are afforded.
Finally, double check the fact about women releasing trillions of eggs each month. It's not accurate. Unless you were using sarcasm in which case, I missed it.
Thanks for an interesting read and I'm hoping for a great discussion!
Perhaps, but would they enjoy life less if they were healthy? Wouldn't they, in fact, enjoy it more?
Caught that before you posted. As a man I never received the uterus owner's manual I assume you did. :p
I don't see how it's possible to make such a value judgment for another individual. Also, "enjoyment" might not be every individual's be-all-and-end-all. But having spent time with several people who have Down Syndrome, I can say with confidence that those I have met seem to enjoy life more fully than most "healthy" people I know.
I can believe that. A great deal of human misery comes from cognizence of mortality, of how industrialized society dehumanizes and isolates us, etc.
However the material abundance created by industrialized society is also what makes it possible to support large subpopulations of neurodivergent people who are unable to perpetuate or improve the infrastructure they depend upon.
It would seem like a good idea, then, to ensure that the majority of the population remains cognitively capable of understanding and maintaining the infrastructure which makes a first world standard of living possible.
If ever nine out of ten people were to be seriously mentally handicapped, would everything be fine? Would that be a bright future? Would the systems of support that DS individuals rely upon continue to exist, or break down over time?
Of course since DS isn't hereditary that's an impossible outcome, but the point is to establish that there's such a thing as too many mentally handicapped people for society to flourish. If we agree on that, then we disagree only on what the precise number is.
Please don't imagine that I can't put myself in the shoes of someone who loves a DS family member. I've heard from many mothers of DS children that the joy they bring to their lives is priceless. But do children without DS not bring joy to their mothers' lives? Is it not in every way an improvement, and in no way a loss if the child is born without DS?
Again, you are attempting to make impossible value judgments about other people's lives. This is literally the same reasoning governments have used to support their eugenics programs. But it is impossible to know the answer. You don't have enough information from an outside perspective, and you can never have an inside perspective into another individual's life, so you will never have enough information to make such a value judgment for anyone but yourself.
Your thoughts on how a larger disabled population can affect society at large are a value judgment I think can reasonably be made--of course, you won't necessarily be correct, but it is possible to make informed opinions about it, at least. I also appreciate that you are against the application of force to achieve a lower ratio of disabled-to-non-disabled people. However, I think that you might consider dropping the portion of your argument that has to do with presuming what would be best for individual Down Syndrome patients, their families, and hypothetical healthy replacement children. Because you are getting into extremely murky territory here.
Perhaps. It was really just for the sake of discussion, but I appreciate that for many families it is not some purely academic matter.
Hahhaaha at uterus owner's manual! I didn't receive an owner's manual. It's a learn as you go type of thing!
People with Down Syndrome would likely enjoy a more ordinary human experience because the world caters to the majority, the average. It's difficult to be an outlier, especially when society doesn't see a benefit in your existence.
I can not agree with this one. Not from personal experience anyway. Maybe the situation is different elsewhere. I finished my schooling, got my diploma ... I am 34 years old ... no steady job and got nothing to show for. Oh dont get me wrong, I'm doing fine and this is not whining in any way. But here is the thing....What I have i built on my own, with the sweat on my back and calluses on my hands and brains. Does the world look at me and think oh lets give her more? Beeing capable means you have to fend on your own. U get pushed in that pool with a smirk and smile: swim or drown. But there is the other side. People who cant swim.
Now to clarify before someone thinks im ranting. I am not. I work with special needs. They bring me joy, they motivate me and i find every day a new chalange always looking for solutions and how I could do/give/make more. So this is my personal experience: they are mostly happy. They are striped of social norms, usually focused only on themselves and their own pleasure. Their mental and emotional age is much lower, meaning they look on the world much differently and not as they are different in anyway. Most even think of themselves as beeing better. When they look themselves in the mirror, they dont see themselves with predjustice and criticism as we do. They don't see themselves as an outlier. To make that valid they would first have to grasp the concept of "the world and its norms".
The world doesnt cater to me..."a capable healthy woman". But it caters to them. Here they get whole support from the system and sociality. I am always happy when one finishes our program and gets a job. Me? I have a job...for this year. Next year? I do not know.
Lets face it....i will never be a ballerina. I am to old, have to much meat on my bones and so much grace as a tractor. But I know 2 girls with down syndrom who are. They are not as slender, as gracefull or even young as the rest of balerinas. But they can be one.
Just saying....
I guess it depends where you live.
I appreciate your perspective and your work with those who have special needs.
I resonate with your argument on how people with Down Syndrome view themselves and the world, although I don't believe that they don't realize their differences. Instead, they work within their differences to do what they can to live their dreams and even be ballerinas if they have the means to do so.
You will always have an advantage over a person with Down Syndrome. Sure, people with Down Syndrome can receive assistance and care (catering) for their well-being, but the world isn't designed for them to thrive and some places - like Iceland - are eliminating these types of people totally.
Comparing the fact that you can't be a ballerina or that you're unemployed to people with Down Syndrome who are employed and ballerinas to show that the world caters to them is a reach. Your options for work and leisure are far more expansive than anything they could ever hope for. Of course, you can be a ballerina. It only takes paying someone to teach you. And you have not only the ability to find work, but the option to be an entreprenuer, create income on Steemit, etc.. The comparison to what opportuities they are afforded to those that you are afforded falls flat.
That's a thought provoking perspective, which is what I look for and value the most on this site. You've got yourself a new follower.