Steem Gamblers Association: Introduction Post
SGA Fairbet
Hello,
The Fairbet account is for the Steem Gamblers Association or SGA. Everyone on Steem has a vested interest to ensure scams on the blockchain are minimalized. Gambling takes many shapes and forms. For now, this account will be providing information about Steem based sites, starting with the ones which promise income streams from playing/investing (dividends). Betting is risky, the intention here is not to complain about bad luck-it's to ensure these Gambling Applications do as promised. You can read @crypticat's post calling for the SGA here
Gambling DApps
*If you would know of a site which should be included in future posts or notice incorrect information, please comment below.
Warning! Steem-Bet
https://steem-bet.com?ref=fairbet
Let's start with the worst offenders first. The anonymous individuals behind @steem-bet have been promising dividends for weeks now but say there is a small issue with engineering. They did a Hardfork to their token without consulting anyone; inflating their token, they sold some other SPT tokens without a proper whitepaper. Now they want to leave Steem altogether and bring everyone to a new site ran on Binance Coin. In a Discord a person called Shadowd representing Steembet asked @broncnutz, @fullcoverbetting, @thomasgutierrez, @cryptiat and @donald.porter if we would be interested in laundering money for some random people, Shadowd wanted to buy 50-100k USD in bitcoin a week for cash. Shadowd also agreed that it is difficult to make money following the law. Warning! Any tokens collected could be worthless, they also fake volume, lie and have terrible community management.
Neutral, Epicdice
https://epicdice.io/?ref=fairbet
@epicdice has been paying relatively high dividends as promised for holding their EPC coin because not many have been issued. Remember dividends only come when someone has lost a lot of Steem. Epicdice does as promised here and @blocksensei or @fr3eze is associated with the account. Their promise that EPC token is going to rocket is unethical and they remain completely anonymous because @blocksensei understands that the site he represents is operating in a 'gray zone' aka. it is unlicensed and not permitted in their jurisdiction. The biggest issue with Epicdice is that they are frequently down for maintenance and there are numerous users who complain of extreme unlucky streaks. SGAs Rating remains neutral on this site.
Neutral, Kryptogamers
https://kryptogamers.com/?ref=fairbet
@kryptogames has four games on their site and the best odds so far. 1% instead of 2% house edge on their dice. You will lose half as much money playing here as the two sites above they also offer blackjack and video poker which have even better odds than dice if you know what you are doing. Due to their fair odds and that more of their tokens have been issued, their dividends are lower than the other sites. In the end, you will likely do better playing here as the house always wins. @kryptogames is anonymous but there has never been an issue with dividends, you do have to manually collect them.
The reason for a Neutral rating, as opposed to a positive one, is because Kryptogames has an issue with bets registering. If you play a lot, depending on what device, which game, etc. Sometimes you will send money to them and your bet won't go through, this money is not automatically returned, instead you need to find the transaction record, message them on discord and ask for a refund. I can imagine thousands of Steem has been sent to Kryptogames that hasn't been refunded. They need to fix this issue and players have to watch their bets and be careful.
Neutral, Cupz
https://cupz.io?referrer=fairbet
@cupz is a new entrant to the Steem gambling sphere. They are a promising casino, already offering four games including dice, player vs player 'Cupz', roulette and a yes/no game. Their Discord spokesperson Jonsey is a nice person and the site is too new to comment about anything. The volume is extremely low and any dividend holder could be waiting for a long time to get a payout. So far there are no issues and they have been very fair. Due to extremely low volume and lack of time to establish trust, they have a Neutral rating.
Neutral, Steem-Roller
The Steem witness @klye created this website (which is down at the moment of posting) there are no tokens to deal with, you can bet on extreme outcomes and you can invest as the house with leverage. It is a unique concept and although there aren't dividends since they offer the ability to bankroll the game we will monitor it. This website is the only one where the creator is not anonymous, there are decent disclaimers or warnings and the developer is Canadian. The site is buggy and very Beta, so a neutral rating remains.
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We were thinking of making a chart and assigning points to these rankings but it is so ambiguous that a warning, neutral and preferred ranking system is best. I will add to this post and update it regularly to keep players informed. Please share any useful information in comments below or on our discord https://discord.gg/xVcubXH If you are connected to a site in any way and think this information is misleading or wrong, we are open to a discussion nothing is set in stone.
I want to invite every single token holder, player, operator, Steemian to follow this account so we can minimalize future exit scams akin to what @magicdice pulled. Please re-steem and share.
Thank you
@superlotto, @bluesniper, @felander, @thedarkhorse, @piaristmonk, @nee-k, @cryptoknight12, @hitmeasap, @tunnaingwin, @theb0red1, @meanbees, @balte, @cryptobro1991, @dera123, @cryptictruth, @jason7282, @manusamlive, @backdm, @okean123, @olegpussyking, @navorn, @thegoliath, @aellly, @duane.dos, @rb3coins, @privatebank, @sourcemechanic, @netaterra, @georgeknowsall, @xyzashu, @sunit, @mcenoramle, @oldtimer, @awesomegames007, @glastar, @cgbartow, @champjus, @etcmike, @drfk, @nanadar, @abrockman, @rawn, @adzrobinson, @cryptopassion, @wylsacom, @supermeatboy, @steemit-legacies, @dalz, @mister-meeseeks, @kaniz, @ekushya, @hotasian, @bafi, @steemshiro, @mcoinz79, @primersion, @ilcreativo, @coinchaos, @stimp1024, @pepperfoo, @aferrell, @rb17btc, @cryptoeera, @gabrielvlad, @khaledmreizeeq, @emrebeyler, @deadspace, @themarkymark, @triplej, @bengdui, @tombstone, @ano123, @lordgod, @parceval, @diehard2k9, @wrecktangle27, @sindong, @pasie15, @access, @taurusheat, @infidel1258, @a0i, @dexter-st-jock, @centering, @rosatravels, @sunray, @allcapsonezero, @jiujitsu, @yangpankil27, @chetanpadliya, @vikisecrets, @forykw, @chriz85, @rhanna10km, @beesteem, @brumest, @equinor, @lovemetouchme2, @elementm, @stabrowski, @satoshibit, @lucasmj, @for91days, @stokjockey, @walterjay, @mfblack
Please note in no way am I suggesting any of the above are affiliated with gambling or these sites and SGA will not Spam tags.
Please share your opinion about gambling and how we should monitor these sites in the future and you're welcome to join our discord https://discord.gg/xVcubXH
Good write-up but
(1)
There is zero promise or guarantee in the article if you read it carefully, or I assume the unethical is referring to the “clickbaity” title.
(2)
If a service keeps going into maitenance mode for bug solving and upgrade. It is a huge green sign for me that rapid development is going on the site and it shows that the team care for a better service. Furthermore, at least 95% of the downtime were scheduled with prior notice in the Discord channel. Will you take a look on the Discord #help channel and check out when was the last time user filed a missing bet complaint? One month ago. That is the result of “frequently down for maintenance”.
(3)
If this article are deemed to be written from the perspective of a neutral association but not a personal review, I’d call this statement amateur. At least all the other claims in this article were base on fact, but not this one.
What numbers can you provide to back this statement up? What was the survey model? How many subjects were involved in this survey? How would you prove the “provably-fair” system in the game is not fair at all? What happens if there are another "numerous of players" claiming that have been really lucky on the game? Will it makes the game legit all of a sudden?
I don’t like the underlying message this statement has been delivered to the crowd, it is suggesting the game is at “potential risk” of fairness integrity without any factual support.
Regards,
Servant of EpicDice
First of all, I appreciate your response it shows you care about the community and your associate's reputation and business.
The post did have a clickbait title but many people only read the title. I am sure you understand that the main principal of tokens/coins is don't speculate on the price unless you consider it a security and really know what you are talking about. Implying that it will rocket is market manipulation, especially when the article is written by an insider who doesn't have the proper disclosures. EPC is too good for clickbait, don't make it seem trashy. Let's just agree that that title was misleading.
Your site underwent a major change today and I agree that it is new and maintenance is a good thing to fix critical issues. The point is that there has been frequent downtime and I am not lying about it. In time I will not mention this as being an issue, but it will take at least a week or so of little to no downtime before I remove this warning. Why don't we let users decide if frequent downtime is good or bad, I am just stating facts. I was not talking about missing bets, just that Epicdice has been down for frequent maintenance meaning it is still Beta or version 1.0
Please see the comment by @ervin-lemark below in the comments, I have also had this issue, so has @abitcoinskeptic and a few others I've talked to who I'd rather not dig up. You can call it an amateur statement but I get paid to work with numbers and have a couple of professional degrees in applied mathematics. I can start showing screenshots of bad luck if you wish and bid them up if you prefer them not to look so amateur. I'd rather not get into this data mining debate but you started it.
For example, right now the payout is showing 236 Steem, the house rakes it 2% and keeps 50% of that, so that means 23600 Steem should have been bet, but the daily wager volume is only 11728. Most bets are small so there have been at least 10k events by my estimate, eliminating any outliers since your max bet size is capped. Why hasn't the law of averages taken effect? Please explain this discrepancy. I don't believe your site is 'provably fair' because for the house to be up twice as much as expected after so many events is extremely rare. It's really funny because the numbers are proving my point at this exact moment.
Provably fair is also a BS statement, unless we hire a third party auditor to check your website regularly, there is absolutely no basis to the claim that the algorithms which you claim to be fair are always running, the numbers right now sure show otherwise and as stated by myself, a few others and even in the comments below, I am not the only one to have made this 'amateur' claim.
Proof of facts that the house is winning an insane amount or 2x the expect rate after at least 10k events, screenshot was taken at 2019-06-12 at 23.12.30 EST convenient it's right now and I didn't cherry pick this.
My sample size is almost 12k Steem bet. Your game will become legit once I see the numbers making sense because right now they don't.
Now that I have answered your questions, please answer mine.
I may have to move you to my warning list if you don't provide factual support of provably fairness, disclose who you are , or explain why it's okay to change the referral structure to 10% after permanently promising 12.5% I am trying to warn people of shady behavior here, you clearly don't have the moral high ground.
Sorry for ranting, nothing personal
Is there a simple way to extract the transactions from the blockchain? I can't use steemworld.org at the moment where this is easily doable. I can show the numbers. I just need a way to extract them...
Steempeak can do it too :)
Here is the losing streak from a month ago. Nine in a row. Then I stopped ...
First five in reverse order
Second four in reverse order
mathematically very plausible: below 45 means a 55% chance losing, a 9 losing streak means the probability is (55%)^9 = 0.46% ... seems not too rare a case. FYI.
True. I didn't complain, I didn't say anything else than that this was a long losing streak.
Hm, on the second thought and please ignore my math ignorance :)
Is this 0.0046% or 0.46% probability?
It is 0.46% -> https://www.sportsbookreview.com/picks/tools/streak-calculator/
Which is, in my personal opinion, a very small probability. Especially when you are on the losing end :)
It happens 😂😂
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(1) Claiming a possession of several mathematical qualifications and you were ranting about deviation with the minimal sample of 12k volume in a single day to call the game shady? Those qualifications just got disqualified shamefully. Do yourselves and the community a favor, study how to query the blockchain data, in/out of fund to the @epicdice, you will find out the earning is very close and will be getting closer to 2%. But that requires high level of data analytic skills and at this point of time I don’t think you are capable of it, since you don’t even seem to get the fundamental of how stat should be treated.
(2)
The intention of SGA is very good and we are really looking towards it, but it obviously not going to happen under your lead. This statement proves you know NOTHING about how blockchain works and we are not even talking about gambling now. And again do yourself a favor, don’t talk or talk less about what you literally had no idea of. The randomness generation is provable and always auditable at all time since the answer is relying in here. Yet, I don’t think you are capable of doing any of it.
(3)
I’m not sure which part of it makes you think that the 12.5% is promised to be permanent. Now I’m too afraid to start a language comprehension class but I will try. It meant that as long as there is referral bonus and a player have a referred user under him, that referral relationship is tied up permanently until the switch.
The house is free to adjust whatever bonus rate in referral, even to totally cut it off in future when they have a better use of that fund in another marketing plan. This is BONUS, and bonus meant to be adjustable at all time. You don't go to a cafe downstairs and haggle with the birthday treats.
True integrity withstands any tests. I’m not the owner of EpicDice and I don’t have the final call on the stand of the game, but I guess it doesn’t matter since you started the threat. I’m replying mainly to deliver this message. You are free to put the game to whatever trash category and EpicDice will not subject to any kind of threat.
SGA will not serves its purpose if it is running by someone who don’t even know how blockchain works. I hereby personally deny the authority of SGA that is running by you.
(This is apparently personal.)
You didn't attack my argument and screenshot which showed a clear deviation between the house winning and aggregate bets, instead you attacked anothers players losing streak. Bold move. As it stands now the house is up over 600 with 22k bet, meaning the house is winning almost 3 times as much as expected. Yes I am very worried with these aggregate numbers. Please explain how this is possible? Use some math and please don't insult my intelligence, it's poor customer service. I understand a few unlucky deviants can lose at max bet, when will Epicdice lose these deviants? Your odds already aren't the best.
You claim to have very good intentions but recognize that you are operating in a gray zone. Unless your earnings are going to charity I don't think the intentions are for anything other than profit. Don't hide behind a superior knowledge of the almighty blockchain, you can change your structure and odds at anytime and already have.
Yes I agree Epicdice can change whatever they want whenever they want. Changing the referral bonus was nothing more than the house deciding to take another 2.5% stake away from the players, it makes it that much worse to gamble on Epicdice. Good intentions or greedy intentions?
By you I mean Epicdice.
By the way, why are you attacking me personally? Have you ever worked in customer service before? You just lost a customer and made an enemy.
Epicdice has lousy odds compared to Kryptogames, you will lose twice as much money playing dice there. Fact.
Now I've said it, please let me know why a 2% house edge is justified over a 1% edge?
Can you please send me a CSV file or excel file of every single roll today in order of the rolls. I just need the outcomes and bets, don't care about the player names. Leave it in the steem gamblers discord.
Also, I fail to see the connection between running a gamblers association and blockchain knowledge. I'm here to fight for players rights. We deserve to know the expected return and what has been happening.
The house owes us an explanation if they wish to have our business, not the other way around. Epicdice just reduced the commission it pays to players who refers other players by 20%, it's a big greedy FU.
I responded to everything. We can do this all day but what good does this bring? Communication with you is too ineffective when the gap of understanding is too far apart.
By you I mean you.
Because you are just speaking for your own from a very biased perspective which I respect fully and have no opinion about, but that is absolutely not cool when you trying to input that tone from a position you trying to force yourself into, a neutral and authentic authority. You are not even close to for taking up that responsibility.
Keep reading keep studying probably is the best advice I could give you for achieving what you want to achieve, a good cause, maintaining the integrity of blockchain gambling industry. You have all my respect for that dream.
However, before you are ready, owning an officially-named account, tagging tons of influential people, is not going to work out. Pretend to be an influencer is the worst path to be an influencer. People are attracted to valuable quality, shine it to them and they shall follow.
Have a good day, my friend.
Say what you will, I appreciate the dialogue.
You still haven't justified why the house dropped the referrals from 12.5% to 10%, which benefits the house more than the players by a vast margin. You just said, "The house is free to adjust whatever bonus rate in referral, even to totally cut it off in future ." Yes, you can do whatever you want, it doesn't make it right or fair.
Go ahead, insult my education, communication and math skills, if it makes you feel superior, it makes you look arrogant. I am not an influencer as I am not trying to sell anything; I just want to warn people not to trust anything in a trustless environment-especially with the recent scandals.
I never claimed to do anything except to provide information about gambling sites, to question them and provide a forum for discussion and debate. I am not here for the gambling sites, I am here for the gamblers and am absolutely biased in favour of the players unlike you who is here solely for profit and to defend the house.
I'm not your friend, I don't know who you are, all I know is that you are super defensive for an unlicensed anonymous online casino. I am here to serve the players, not the house. If the players choose not to listen to me and would rather trust you, that's their own choice.
Arrogance is not an attractive quality.
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If you are planning to keep tagging people keep me on the list. I don't mind the tag and it will remind me to take a look.
To talk about streaks is hard as someone that has gambled in most every large casino in Vegas and many others I know that in the most regulated environments the double up until you win approach doesn't work. Odds are all about large numbers and in the short term anything can happen. That said I get why some people feel like the unlucky streaks are a little more then just bad luck.
Part of this feeling comes from the anonymity of the ownership of sites and lack of any sort of regulation. Due to legalities in SO many areas I can understand owners not wanting to be public with their involvement in these gambling sites. I don't have the solution to the issue, but would love to see conversations on how this could be solved.
Oh and I am all for Kryptogamers right now. I've played enough rolls there to know that while there are "bad streaks" they are within reason and love the 1% edge vs 2% as it really adds up when you have made multiple thousands worth of bets.
Hi thedarkhorse,
Thanks for your reply.
I don't plan on mass tagging people in every post unless it's a critical warning and one of these sites has turned for the worst. I recommend you or anyone who collects these tokens or plays periodically check in if they think these tokens or websites will provide any sort of income stream that can be relied upon.
If the odds are fair, I definitely won't argue them. It's silly when people complain it's impossible that the casino got 3 blackjacks in a row, it's certainly uncommon but probably happens every single day at any busy betting establishment.
Online gambling is always questionable especially when there is a lack of trust, who regulates these people? This account is the first attempt I've seen on Steem and it is desperately needed. It's definitely fair to question the numbers and actions of anonymous people who have zero accountability. Instead of relying on governments to provide regulation, maybe grassroots organizations can take charge. I certainly trust well known Steem accounts more than most politicians.
Kryptogames has by far the best odds. As shown in a post here their dividends are smaller as a result of the better odds and this is expected which confirms the fairness of their website. Rational people looking to win shouldn't even play on the other sites where the odds are literally twice as bad. I also like blackjack because it is more fun than just clicking a button and the odds are even better than a 1% house take on dice.
Edited as you do not seem to be happy!
OMG @abitcoinskeptic -I said sorry and you still have problem?
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Hello, I did not mean to spam. May be you have miss understood. Sorry for any inconvience.. ✍👍🏻
OMG @abitcoinskeptic -I said sorry and you still have problem?
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I understand what spam is. You upvoted your own spam comments or had your minions do it which is just as pathetic.
When someone calls out your spam for the trash that it is please just stop doing it or go spam elsewhere
Please don't spam links Ali, you deserve this downvote and should read Steem TOS.
WARNING You obviously don't get the point. Not only are your comments spam, but you are having your spam comments upvoted.
Please remove all of your upvotes from these trashy comments or I will make it my goal to follow you around Steem and downvote more of your comments and posts.
I will not accept your apology because you keep upvotig your spam comments which means you are not sorryband you did not learn your lesson.
Posted using Partiko Android
Until we get an AMA or at least KYD on all these so-called 'casinos'— DrugWars is the only game I recommend playing on STEEM. (Splinterlands is kl too, magic cards are just not my thing.)
First I'm hearing about this money laundering crap with SteemBet 🙄 Haven't paid much attention to them since the daily divs were delayed (for clearly stupid... reasons).
Recently removed myself from that group and will distance myself (further) from these type of projects all together. Tried KryptoGamers a couple times but then Magic Dice exit scammed and volume there shot through the roof, hardly leaving a chance to get a head start anymore.
Unlike many people in crypto, I use my real name and try to leverage real connections. Risking that during the bear market now seems like it was a desperate attempt to keep earning. But as we all know...
My suggestion to anyone looking to do Proof of Bet 'mining' for div tokens is to consider looking into other, new ways to generate STEEM dividends ie:
Thanks for the mention, looking forward to assist the association any way I can. @crypticat, @fullcoverbetting you guys are off to a great start with SGA!
#SteemOn
Thanks for the in-depth comment Donald, no one can really hide on the internet and you can't really erase what you type on a blockchain. You are wise disassociating yourself from these sites. I am just trying to protect the players.
Proof of Bet mining is definitely not worth the losses, there is a net gain to the house in every instance. Play for fun, not as an investment.
Couldn't agree more, but some of us gotta learn the hard way 🤕
Quick suggestion: As an association, use the word we. As in "We are just trying to protect the players."— even if it's just you, Cat; you're posting for/along with an entity 🤓
Cheers
We get it Donald. I like to leave grammatical errors so people underestimate us. For example if you think it's just me taking the better cat photos, you're mistaken😸
Question about tipu tokens since you mentioned them above. Why are people paying 1.13 or more Steem for them on Steem-Engine when they literally represent 1 delegated Steem to @tipu and you get can mine them from purchasing uovotes. Am I missing something?
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Welcome to Steem @fairbret! This is a wonderful service you are offering to the gambling and gaming community here. If I was a dodgy casino operator I would give you a bug fat downvote, but I am not.
I do like how younstart most off with a neutral rating. In my opinion a positive rating needs to be earned and operators ignoring soft criticism is foolish.
In my experience from customer service the customer is always right. So if they say this site feels unlucky or these operators are mean, thats their valid opinion.
'Show me the evidence or stop lying' is a natural and valid counter, but from the customer's experience you may as well just tell them off and call them stupid.
'I hope your luck changes. No one has show us enough evidence to support that we encourage you to analyse' sounds much better.
Anyway hope your project works even though I've put away my gambling dice for now.
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You're right, this is a players union so to speak. I will consider all the evidence and act fairly. I want the casinos to exist and provide a fun and safe environment to gamble in. The customer is almost always right; downvoting a players association is a really big FU to all the players and is completely uncalled for, I'd love to see how that goes down.
I am not alone in my theory Epicdice is rigged, they should prove that they aren't before I have to prove that they are. As of right now, the house is up 2x the expected amount after 12000 Steem wagered, odd amirite? Maybe they could do an AMA, but they refuse to identify themselves (naturally) and probably won't allow us to continually and randomly audit their code so it would only be an AMFT (Ask Me Filtered Things)
Since you put away your gambling dice, may I suggest some Roulette on Cupz or Cards on Kryptogamers?Blackjack and Video Poker have surprisingly good odds if you know how to play.
Hi and welcome here! When I started on steemit, my biggest problem was to find interesting people to interact with. So, to help newcomers getting started I created a directory with other interesting and or talented steemians to follow or interact with. Feel free to check it out at https://www.steemiandir.com I am sure it will help you find like-minded people. Enjoy your stay here and do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions!
Interesting and also sad. Why we cant have a normal casino on steem a legit one?
Honestly i am jealous for other blockchains because they have better gambling sites and also many of them accept more currency or have they own. Maybe after the SMT we can have something similar.
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We already have tokens with steem-engine, SMTs aren't going to change much. I too hope they evolve and become legitimate.
Welcome to the Steem platform @fairbet.
I am not a big gambler myself but I do see the potential and how it can be fun for others.
What I think is needed is a lot of transparency, people should know about win% and the like.
Also if there are scams around we should point them out.
Good luck to you. 🙂
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Thank you, the odds are on most of the sites under FAQ. 2% for dice except with kryptogamers where it's 1%. I just want to warn people, especially when fishy things start to happen.
Give us an overview on @steemslotgames please
They have an interesting conspect, but Idk if it's legit.
SteemSlotGames
Yes it will definitely be added in the future. Do they have an investment scheme or tokens? I know they do contests all the time but those seem random.
No I don't think they have tokens, but they have something called BONUSES.
I don't really understand these
Followed, upvoted and resteemed. Please, keep me in the loop.
I am not a big player, yet I do the occasional roll. Like today, for the first time with https://cupz.io?referrer=ervin-lemark (referral link)
I used to play https://epicdice.io/?ref=ervin-lemark (referral link) yet I had the unlucky streak there, as you've mentioned it. Coincidence or ... ?
Thanks for your diligence!
Thanks Ervin-Lemark, we appreciate it! Epicdice just made some major changes and I am giving them another shot. Let's hope the 1 in a million only happens with the winning lotto numbers. It's funny we see these streaks all the time on Epicdice, yet no one has won the 77777 draw for 10k Steem on Kryptogamers....numbers are a funny business