Are You Seeing the Truth? What Is Your Vision of Steem?

in #steem7 years ago (edited)

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Moment of truth.

It’s an event that happens to us all the time. We learn. We change our minds. Read and write. That’s how the knowledge base in our brains get modified over time. Thing is, it's most likely that not all truths in our minds are true. There may be false truths as well.

So now, have you ever get so upset in a matter so much because you know you are very likely correct, but the knuckleheads in front of you just don’t want to learn the truth and act upon newfound knowledge? I'm sure many have gone through such an experience before.

I have in recent times. It's quite a rare event since I'm generally chilled to the max. Part of life I guess. It's funny because I've never even been to the local council here to lodge complaints before. But here I am, doing it on Steem. I guess that's because we have highly responsible witnesses working hard to improve Steem all the time and making sure things are still working.

The economy is not working out, guys.

You might have seen my ramblings about Steem's dysfunctional economic design recently here, here, and here.

And why am I feeling like I should push this through? I can already demonstrate the problem myself if I want to. Everybody also knows they can do it as well. It's only a matter of time before it becomes a full-swing phenomenon on Steem. Just sell 100% of our votes or use it only fully on ourselves. This is the property of linear economics and cheapified curation.

I'm beginning to think the huge monthly salary top witnesses are getting is working against the best interest of the platform. None of these guys are feeling the urgency to fix the damn pothole everybody has been complaining about. It's like consultancy. Propose half solutions and prolong the problem.

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Image source

But I understand that some of us may all just be talking past each other most of the time. Not saying that I'm right, but I might be absolutely right lol. I'll attempt to elaborate as best I can. If we're in the same scope of discussion, then perhaps we can begin discussing this matter clearly. There's not much to discuss here though. Even my mum is saying "why so stupid"? Decide for yourself if it's agreeable.

Guiding principles in economic design.

  1. We can expect many different kinds of voters in a massive social network.
  2. The lowest common denominator activity is self-voting / vote-trading (no work).
  3. The second lowest common denominator activity is curation (smallest unit of work imaginable).
  4. (2) is easily 6-10x more profitable than (3). Zero work for most returns.
  5. Because (4), the problem should be fixed immediately. It's creating negative feedback loops in the system, much more than positive feedback loops. Balance it out.

Proposed changes.

(What we think is the cheapest move Steem can make to shift the economic equilibrium sufficiently enough to balance out the effects of voting)

  • Capped modest superlinear (ie modest superlinear n~1.3 in lower-end, linear in higher-end)
  • ~50% curation rewards.
  • Slightly increased downvote incentives.

Expected benefits of proposed economic equilibrium.

  • Less spam.
  • Less pressure on scalability progress.
  • Bigger curation economy.
  • Decent content.
  • Happier and better users.

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(How about making corruption somewhat irrelevant on Steem with the right economic designs? Image source)

Bidbots and vote trading practices are cancerous under Steem's economy today.

I don't really have a problem with anyone exchanging votes, selling SP delegations, buying votes, or even operating bidbots. That's just the best move now, although it's at the expense of the network's long-term health. More and more users will start doing it as time goes on as behaviours converge into the expected economic equilibrium, which is rampant self-voting / vote trading. Really can't blame anyone at all. Anyone participating in these activities will more likely stop contributing to such corruption naturally when the right economic incentives are in place.

However, I have a problem if top witnesses defend the existence of vote trading markets and is not working to make such markets irrelevant. To be frank, I think it's intellectual dishonesty to continue doing so. They're not helping the platform at all. Vote trading is by definition blind and doesn't involve any work no matter how you reason it out. They're exactly the greedy and greasy middleman stuff that blockchains aspired to get rid of in design.

It's easy to know about this truth once you relate it with your observations and experience in the real world. Vote trading is ultimately a practice that corrupts organisations and is never a good idea to have it as the dominating force. Now I remember asking if vote trading is a corrupt practice last year, but I guess I was being too open-minded about it, reserving some healthy skepticism for my own convictions.

But in the end, 2 plus 2 is not equals 5. The mathematics and behavioural-economics of vote trading markets can never work out in favour of the greater good of any social platform. Or anywhere else really. Giving yourself free money is not work and such behaviour cannot be dominating the economy. Sure, the behaviour will always exist, even I do it myself sometimes. Who doesn't like easy money? But overall, we need to keep it in balance in-design. Currently, Steem's economy is highly imbalanced.

Bidbots will never go away. But they're cancerous under Steem's current economic reality, for reasons stated above. This is why we need to get curation behaviours rewarded at least on par with vote trading behaviours for the good of the platform.

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(A witness spotted in the wild Tai Chi'ing away. Image source)

But, but, but.. we now have bidbots with whitelists and blacklists and rainbowlists and we just need to get more people self-voting and bidbotting on high quality contributions.

While I'd agree that bidbotting on great content / contributions is a lesser evil, it still doesn't escape the fact that vote trading is inherently blind and is an activity that doesn't involve any work.

Vote sellers get money for doing nothing, which is the same as self-voting. Vote buyers pay money to get votes for themselves. Vote brokers facilitate the transaction between buyers and sellers while taking an unnecessarily high middleman cut from Steem. None of the economic agents are doing any favour for Steem as a social content platform for doing the least work at most expense.

So if anyone's defending the vote trading market by saying there's work involved in updating whitelists, blacklists, or whateverlists, I'd say they're just babbling with no substance, especially when the premise remains the same: in linear economics, vote trading is basically self-voting, which is again, by definition content blind and involves zero work. I can't say this enough.

Also like any oracles, bidbot gatekeepers and operators are the writers of their own whateverlists. They can also just as likely produce their whateverlists for whatever else, like green-lighting their own friends, sock-puppets, mistresses, cats, dogs, and such while similarly able to strike off anyone else regardless whether or not they're productive agents on Steem.

"They will keep defending it as long as they are raking in the cash. The whole altruism pretense is silly."
by a very dedicated Steem witness and curator.

Yes, this also goes to bidbot operators that are also policing abuse, spam, and the likes. I know these things happen all the time, and are very important work. It's part of curation in some indirect way. But it remains that we're operating in an economy that's fuelled by the very activity that should've been avoided in the first place. It's almost the equivalent of the police department paying abusers to be abusers just so everyone gets to keep their fake jobs being busy and prosper. There may be good intentions, but the premise is entirely false under Steem's current economic reality.

Don't get me wrong, most vote traders may have Steem's best interest in mind, but if any witnesses are vote traders themselves, I'd most likely not going to treat them seriously unless they really recognise the problem but is doing it anyway just because it's the best move. Just please don't defend the practice simply because you're earning from it. It should have no place being the dominating practice in any networks, and it should be on top of witnesses' minds that economic reforms ought to take place because in my opinion, it's the most pressing problem on Steem now that doesn't require years of research and development to get anything done.

Honestly, it's getting harder for me to take most of the top witnesses seriously now if they can't see this problem in plain sight and acknowledge the truth. Who doesn't like easy money to keep their position? Everybody likes it and will likely defend their privilege in accessing easy money until the end of time.

Focus on designing the right economic incentives where we can only hope that the path of least of resistance everyone takes go to at least some small amount of work in order to fuel positive feedback loops. And that will be based on curation, not vote trading practices that create negative feedback loops.

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(More witnesses spotted in the wild doing the Tai Chi. Image source)

But, but, but.. we can make it more efficient to swat out those who are abusing self-voting and bidbot votes.

Another brickwall of knuckleheadedness lol. I'd agree on a separate downvote pool and increased downvote incentives to keep behaviours in check. But as already reasoned out in previous posts and replies repeating the same thing over and over again by hundreds of different people, we are just fighting against an economy that incentivices counter-productive behaviours to a great degree, so that standalone solution itself is very likely insufficient.

One of the big reasons is that downvotes on spammy vote trading activities end up diverting the rewards pool back to other spammy vote trading activities elsewhere, anyway. What's ironic about this situation is that our massive flagging activites, along with accounts creatively distributing themselves to more sock puppets and more useless posts will add even more spam on the network.

Again, this all falls apart only because of the dysfunctional economic equilibrium we're in right now, which can very likely be fixed.

Downvotes should only be seen as a backup plan. The only truly effective way to solve the problems we have right now is to design an economy that will have a better chance of preventing the activities and behaviours that we'd (rather not) want to downvote.

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(A witness doing the Tai Chi by the beach. Image source)

But, but, but.. new and low-powered users will feel left out if they can't effectively self-vote.

So sell them some votes? I don't know what to say about this. If only for the purpose of advertising, sure. But now it's not advertising. It's something like a money-printing machine. What we're proposing here will effectively shrink the profitability of vote buyers / sellers / intermediaries. If vote buyers are paying much more with a higher-risk of not profiting from the action, then it's more like advertising, which means persistent users of this nature are the users that we'd actually want more than the rest.

Again, self-voting and vote trading are ultimately the same activity that's content blind and involves no work at all, even if said new users are self-voting or bidbotting on objectively great content or contributions all the time.

If users have been consistently curating and contributing to the network, they will more likely get voted up when there are better curation economies going on in the network. To retain users (the kind we'd want anyway), they would need to feel that it's more or less working fairly. Let me explain what fair here means. It simply means that curation rewards are on par with vote trading rewards, if not better. If the economy's fair and has a decent amount of curation, then users will more likely stay whether or not they're actually getting curated.

We can only hope to implement a massive, but functional Steem economy when it can at least reward work as much as no-work. Yes, we're working with the absolute minimum requirement by equating a simple act of curation as a smallest unit of work on the platform. Today, Steem is rewarding no-work much more than work. So it's not Proof-of-Brain enough.

I'd entirely agree that squeezing out the floor sucks for the smaller players as they lose some of that gamification element to dust-vote themselves under the proposed changes. But that's only one small part of gamification. There are other kinds of gamification, like persisting and perhaps getting recognised later by the community for their great contributions? Ever played a difficult game and succeeding?

But of course, we wouldn't want to make life punishingly difficult for new users and low SP users alike as with the case of n2 rewards. And as explained, purely linear economics inherently works against the favour of the platform even though it'd attract plenty of players. This is why many of us have been suggesting somewhere in-between linear (n) and superlinear (n2), which we could term as capped modest superlinear, for example, n1.337, or even n1.618 which is based on the golden ratio - with the top-ends maintaining linearity.

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(Big butts. Image source)

But, but, but.. the rich will only get richer.

One common reservation about the modest superlinear and ~50% curation rewards proposal is that it provides highly-staked accounts more influence, while also making the rich richer. I seriously have no idea why this is a problem. It's very likely the rich will get richer anyway, especially if they simply diversify their wealth. Great wealth and influence is not the problem. The problem is the alignment of economic incentives.

Plus, if the argument is the rich will only get richer.. what about Steem's current economy that is making the laziest workers richer than the hardworkers? Don't even need to any hard data and statistics for this. Just use the platform and look around yourself.

Soon 90% of stakeholders will be doing nothing but just sell their votes and self-vote to oblivion with spammy stuff. It will become highly unsustainable. 90% is actually not so far from our current situation now with an estimated 50-70% of total Steem Power being sold and self-voted. It will only get worse.

The point here, again, is to have economic incentives moving away from vote trading activities and into curation activities, so that even the biggest stakeholders on the network will effectively have more of their voting power going to curation activities (either by manual curating, auto-curating, and delegating SP to curation groups and such) compared to what we have today.

However, I understand that extreme wealth disparity could very well be somewhat destructive in any society, although I still think it's not the greatest problem, especially with the right economic incentives in place, one that distributes wealth all around.

In any case, capped superlinear is a good idea. Superlinear rewards in the lower-end, and linear reward in the higher-end. What we really want here is ~80% of the benefits in superlinear for ~20% of the cost, hence somewhere between n and n2 with a linear top-end. Best bang for the buck.

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(Sleeping buttnaked. Image source)

But, but, but.. maybe we just need more layers of value-adding services other than vote-trading services.

Of course we can use more value-adding services like @dlive, @dtube, @utopian-io, @steemhunt, @steemmonsters and such. These services may pan out well. But my guess is that's only more likely under the right circumstances. It's just very likely not going to add much to Steem at the moment. The path of least work and most money is still in self-voting and vote trading, which again, creates negative feedback loops for Steem and generally making the UX terrible for users of the platform as well.

But, but, but.. non-linear is not business-friendly.

I personally think the defence that investors and businesses should participate heavily in self-voting and voting trading is, sorry to say, moronic. No good investments work that way. It's literally devaluing their stakes because it's feeding into a negative feedback loop. But I understand that it's the best move now.

However, if you just think one step ahead, solving Steem's economic problem as per our proposal will likely provide more sustainable returns and make the platform a better place for everyone, especially investors.

But, but, but.. we should lead by example then.

"As I've argued before, this is not a problem of individual misbehavior or bad culture or inability to discover good content or bad ui etc. We've just got a flawed economic system that provides the very action we don't want with the highest rewards."
by @trafalgar

But, but, but.. ok chill. Enough has been said about the subject.

Why are we talking past each other most of the time anyway?

I had a realisation yesterday. Discussions can only be effective when participants are able to scope out their thoughts and work in the same wavelength, so to speak. I feel like we are sometimes irrational in discussions because there are emotions involved in the mix. I suspect that it might have to do with our sense of ethics when we're discussing stuff: Kantianism vs utilitarinism / consequentialism.

Anyway, going through this process of complaining recently has also made me experienced firsthand discussions on blockchain protocol changes. Oh boy, such discussions can hardly scale beyond the size of a telephone booth, and achieving consensus in a decentralised network is really not easy at all. The struggle is real. It's a long and tedious process to even get anything moving forward, even agreeing on something as simple as 2 + 2 is not equals 5 (like Steem's economic problem, honestly).

Makes me wanna bang my head on the wall. Because we also get muddled in-between objective and subjective thinking all the time. It's almost like thinking either in System 1 or System 2, fluctuating between different topics while communicating, while more often than not, completely missing the point of the discussion in the end. Even then, our discussions usually get lost in the wind with no machines around trying to make sense of it all. Repeat over and over again. It's a huge time-sink. Will the real semantic web please stand up?

Thank Ohad that the technology might be arriving soon. I hope it works. It'll be a shame to stay frozen and paralysed on this simple matter though. But I digress.

Please take our proposal seriously.

I know it might not be fair for me to say this, but top witnesses literally only have one job other than maintaining witness nodes: Make Steem Better. But it seems like Steem has been in the ICU ward for a while now and nobody's attending the emergency.

Don't mind if I repeat here.

Guiding principles in economic design.

  1. We can expect many different kinds of voters in a massive social network.
  2. The lowest common denominator activity is self-voting / vote-trading (no work).
  3. The second lowest common denominator activity is curation (smallest unit of work imaginable).
  4. (2) is easily 6-10x more profitable than (3). Zero work for most returns.
  5. Because (4), the problem should be fixed immediately. It's creating negative feedback loops in the system, much more than positive feedback loops. Balance it out.

Proposed changes.

(What we think is the cheapest move Steem can make to shift the economic equilibrium sufficiently enough to balance out the effects of voting)

  • Capped modest superlinear (ie modest superlinear n~1.3 in lower-end, linear in higher-end)
  • ~50% curation rewards.
  • Slightly increased downvote incentives.

Expected benefits of proposed economic equilibrium.

  • Less spam.
  • Less pressure on scalability progress.
  • Bigger curation economy.
  • Decent content.
  • Happier and better users.
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Repectfully, you are completely mistaken about downvoting. I understand this is not necessarily a popular point of view because downvoting can cause a lot of problems. However, ultimately downvoting is the only way to differentiate between 'good' content and 'bad' content or between value creation and value extraction, or any other distinction you want to make (and we should be well aware by now of the critical importance of making such distinctions).

Curation rewards (and increasing them) are okay, but ultimately they too can be captured, sold, and redistributed. Current bid bots just keep their curation rewards, but make curation rewards bigger and they will start sharing those back with delegators and/or customers in a new form of mediated self-voting.

Non-linear rewards similarly incentivize concentration of voting (which has at times been also identified as a villain to a healthy Steem economy), but they still can't differentiate between good concentration and bad concentration. Again, this can also be captured and redistributed. For example, most current bid bots divide their vote among all bidders. But bid bots could do something different, like only vote on the top 5 bids, ensuring higher concentration and better returns. Or impose other rules enforcing sufficient concentration. It also rather directly encourages vote trading (of the form: "We both vote for all of my posts, and in exchange we will both vote for all of your posts.") This in no way improves the content or the economy. It has some modest benefits in increasing the visibility of rewards being paid out and discouraging spam, but beyond that, not much help to the quality of content or value-creating activities.

Your comments about economic incentives and getting a better equilibrium are spot on, but the way that such an equilibrium is defined to favor a particular kind of activity is almost entirely via downvoting. Our current problems largely derive from insufficient downvoting: As you said, the dominant part of the current equilibrium is content-neutral, but again, how do you encourage an economic equilibrium that is not neutral. The only answer I see that actually does that is downvoting.

That doesn't mean there will actually be a lot of downvoting going forward (particularly after a transition period, as people figure out the 'new rules'). Downvoting is costly to at least one and arguably both sides of the deal (upvoters and downvoters) and naturally an equilibrium will tend to discourage it (just hopefully less so than now), but the resulting equilibrium will have voters who are more careful about what they vote on (doesn't that sound nicely non-neutral to you?!) because they face a real risk of downvoting if they engage in bad behavior (defined above, and by you and others very well in the past).

I know downvoting is controversial and in many ways unpopular, and that it has real costs in terms of potential for conflict, discouragement, etc. But if we want a better economy and better functioning voting system we are going to have to swallow the bitter medicine, and not by watering it down and describing what is needed as being only 'moderate' (as you unfortunately did above).

FWIW, I don't believe much non-linearity is needed, in part because downvoting already introduces non-linearity (your return is no longer linear in your stake/vote power if you face a real risk of downvoting). However, I would support some modest non-linearity at the low end as an extra step in discouraging spam.

Also, one last comment. @lukestokes is absolutely right that step one in making changes like this consists of one of two things:

  1. Convincing Steemit Inc. to change its development priorities to addressing it.
  2. Undertaking a more comprehensive effort (as @lukestokes has described in some other comments) to de-centralize the development process and control over the code base. As things stand now, witnesses only have the ability to veto hard forks that are proposed by Steemit. Witnesses can not enact any changes that are not implemented and released by Steemit, absent a more comprehensive effort to rework the development process and control over the 'official' github repo.

I fully appreciate that your post may be, in part, directed at #1, and that's perfectly fine (even something I wholeheartedly support). However, many of your comments focus on the witnesses and unless you have #2 in mind, witnesses have a very limited role to play on this.

Witnesses can not enact any changes that are not implemented and released by Steemit.

To me this is one of the core issues that slows down innovation on Steemit.com. Two years ago it was sufficient for a witness to have knowledge about servers and how to run and maintain a node. The Witness rewards back than were a few 100 Dollars I think which covered the sever costs and a bit extra.

Today however that same model isn't sufficient anymore in my opinion. I don't want to get off topic but we can learn a lot from EOS here in a way that BlockProducers (witnesses) are expected to contribute to the development of the platform beside running a server and producing blocks.

The same requirement should be true here on Steemit and all 21 top witnesses should have the ability or hire the resources to suggest and implement improvements to the Steemit platform.

Unfortunately we can't count on Steemit.Inc to solve all issues for us, that is why the top witnesses should be empowered to make improvements them self.

The other side is to take a look at what is working. I think Utopian.io is an example of a non-profit model that could thrive on a system like this... provided it has the proper support.

Steem is a DAO, and the voting system is broken for it's intended purpose. I agree that flagging is a huge part of the equation here that is totally broken.

We should look at what other DAO's are doing in the field. How has District0x and DAOstack Aragon approach these issues? All of them have written very interesting articles about the game theory in creating token curated registries like STEEM.

Part of the problem is there is no organized way for us to talk about these things. As others have said there is a lot of shouting, but not so much getting done.

All of them have written very interesting articles

Please give me the links to the articles you believe are relevant. It is impossible to follow every single blockchain project.

Ok these are articles from projects that are just now entering mainnet. Their main difference from steem being they are platforms preparing to enable groups to set up a huge range of DAOs, including steem style registries. I think these articles are relevant and might help you in the direction you going.

On token curated registries
https://medium.com/@ilovebagels/token-curated-registries-1-0-61a232f8dac7

Grading content on a TCR with up and down votes:
https://medium.com/@sebastian.gajek/graded-token-curated-decisions-with-up-downvoting-designing-cryptoeconomic-ranking-and-2ce7c000bb51

Daostack article on decentralized governance
https://medium.com/daostack/decentralized-governance-first-principles-1fc6eaa492ed

"What community governance actually entails"
https://blog.aragon.one/aragon-will-be-community-governed-5069ed8d0a33

Thread on governance algorithms:
https://reddit.com/comments/4rtpmm

These articles are from:
Argon - their "newspaper" is here (https://monthly.aragon.one/news/aragon/)
Daostack
District0x - another project to look at

Maybe we need anonymous downvoting. Could we add ring signatures? I would down vote much more if it’s secretive. Any monero Devs around @smooth.

Unfortunately it is rather hard to do anonymous transactions in Steem because it does not use traditional transaction fees, and instead needs to charge bandwidth usage to the sender.

Kevin wants to increase incentives for downvotes.

Slightly increased downvote incentives.

Isn’t that what you want also? I’m confused about which part is completely wrong.

I've said this before in comments, but the downvoting tool is like putting a chainsaw in the hands of a 6 year old. There are simply those intent on adding no value but only reaping any rewards they can gain with the least amount of work. Some of the big downvoters run an attack business and anyone innocently in their way gets taken out with his chainsaw. I actually hate the ability to downvote because it simply gets abused by people intent on either controlling the rewards pool so there is more available for them or to just plain be vicious. Bernie Sanders comes to mind...

"Slightly"

The overall take from the post as I read it was that downvoting was a relatively minor element. In my view that is completely wrong and downvoting is in fact tthe most important element by far, perhaps the only important element.

Thanks for clarifying.

Thanks for responding @smooth. I’d like to reply similarly to what I’ve written to Luke above. Our proposal has also addressed the downvote portion like you’ve mentioned, and we’ve also considered the other modifications as preventative measures as well when it comes to flaggable activities.

However, I would support some modest non-linearity at the low end as an extra step in discouraging spam.

Yup, this is the plan. Maintain linear at the high-end.

And yes to be honest, I’ve no good idea of how things really work in a dpos setting and thought block producers are literally the ones making Steem what Steem is. I may write to Steemit, but in the end it'll still be up to the top witnesses to handle and execute the code? I may be wrong about a lot of how things work around here.

@lukestokes is the one to best address the issue of how to evolve the development process and governance (since he has probably thought about it the most and also written some about it) but as I mentioned, in practice, currently witnesses can only veto. There is movement in the direction of a more inclusive development workflow but if you want change now, lobby Steemit (the developers) and then once they release something you like, lobby witnesses to approve it (or if they release something you don't like, lobby witnesses to reject it).

Ah got it, thanks. It's been close to a year since the last HF. I thought that the 7x difference between curation and non-curation would've been causing an alarm. What has been stopping any tweaks and changes to move away from the situation? Or perhaps they're seeing value in self-voting/vote-trading that many are not seeing?? Confusing lol.

What has been stopping any tweaks and changes to move away from the situation?

It isn't a priority of Steemit Inc nor on their roadmap. Their approach is focused on SMTs and other priorities. The idea of decentralizing development so that priorities aren't solely determined by Steemit Inc absolutely has validity but is first of all a complex transition to pull of and second of all, I also see some skepticism that the system "too new" to be ready for that..I don't agree with the latter, however, I do agree with the former and because of the scale and complexity of such a transition, it will only happen if there is widespread and non-reluctant support for it

Curation rewards (and increasing them) are okay, but ultimately they too can be captured, sold, and redistributed.

What? Curation rewards depend on what you vote. If you start voting on shit content and 90%+ of the inflation goes to curation, good luck finding a way to redistribute or sell it in any viable way.
Curation is the ultimate 'proof of human' in our network. No bot will ever be able to judge a content better than a human.

Curation rewards depend on what you vote

No, it depends on whether other stake votes for it too, not what it is. It is mostly a measure of concentration.

If I agree to vote after you and you agree to vote after me we both gain curation rewards. Or if we both delegate to a bot and the bot ends up making a single very large vote then we still gain curation rewards. Again, it is all about concentration unless someone else comes along and downvotes. Downvotes are different because they don't directly gain from concentration the superlinearity as curation rewards do. You can't help yourself or agree to help (trade votes with) your friend or swarm together to increase rewards by downvoting (although I guess you could help your friend a tiny bit by downvoting other posts; this obviously is of minimal significance).

Curation is the ultimate 'proof of human' in our network. No bot will ever be able to judge a content better than a human.

That would be ideal, but without humans downvoting where does the input to say whether the curation rewards are being paid to actually 'judge' the content as opposed to just rewarding vote concentration, swarming, vote trading, concentrated stake, etc.?

Maybe just bind people to downvote then ?
Like you have 10 upvotes and one downvote daily and unless you actually do your daily downvote your voting power will sink.

I don't know if the proposed changes are the right ones, but I do completely agree with you that the economics we have today is wrong and will degrade the value of Steem over time. I for one, would love to see some changes. With those changes we (STINC, witnesses, community) shall analyses the results. I think we need to go through some serial changes, tweaking and tuning.

On topic of witnesses. The article you resteemed written by donkeypong shows some of our top witnesses trying to earn even more money by running nodes in other blockchains...could that be the reason why they dont have time to get the economics in Steem correct? Certainly, they are de-risking their efforts in crypto space, when Steem goes down the drain, they may have a winner in some other blockchain. And I'm pretty sure it is not only EOS they are part of, but other chains as well. I don't like witnesses making excuses for what they do, whilst they dont take care of Steem, and in the mean time taking in a LOT of money!

But but but ... Long story short .... I fully agree with you, we shall change the economics of Steem now.

as i said before you could put a Captcha whenever you make a post or a comment it will certainly defeat some of the bots spamming.

Why superlinear rewards? There are no issues whatsoever with linear rewards. As if the current bid bot situation was created by the linear rewards? It is not the case. Linear rewards are the best thing ever to happen on this blockchain and give freedom to people.

I agree with everything else, except I think 50% to curators is way too less. This won't solve the bid bot problem. Curation should go ~90%.

50% is a good starting point IMO. It has the advantage of maximizing leveraged effect. Current curation is about 15%. Increasing that to 50% means shifting 35%, That's a reduction of 41% to author payouts (certainly a sting) and an increase of 233% to curators, which is dramatic and can easily have effects that need to be observed to really assess. Once you get to the point of parity, robbing Peter to pay Paul becomes more symmetric (10% increase to one is 10% decrease to the other) and far less dramatic in the relative effect. It may still be necessary or beneficial but I'd be in favor of trying 50% first.

Why have author rewards at all? Just key authors curate first. We need to turn curation up as high as possible.

Cool suggestion. I have passed it along to some other witnesses and major stakeholders for discussion.

Maybe eliminating author rewards would allow some simplification as well.

With all this crap out there the first upvote is almost as valuable to the platform as a good piece.

The thirty minute rule would give repeat authors all the curation rewards from front running vote bots that bet on sure thing authors. I think good authors would do quite well.

But more importantly, good curators would do better than now.

Philisophically authoring is an act of curation. Organizing and highlighting ideas and typing them up is not much different than organizing the platforms “posts” that show up on the front page by voting for them with an appropriate degree of voting power. The author curates his mind from invisible to visible and each subsequent curator increases (or decreases) that visibility.

Thanks for taking the idea to others. I recommended it last year or maybe even I. 2016 so I have thought of it for a while but I still think it’s a good one.

(No need for reply)

I'm not sure you are "absolutely right" and that we'll see these expected benefits after having implemented these changes. I am actually sure you can't know you're right; I get that a lot when discussing economics, so you may blame me.

In this case, I suspect things will merrily carry on as before, with different money-making algorithms, as with the current distribution of Steemses, there is always a way of doing that.

But I don't care much about all that anymore, and I don't think it is worth arguing about.

If we do nothing, things will go down the drain with some very unpleasant noises, so let's just try your proposals and see what happens. If things get worse, roll back, if things stay the same or get better, keep the changes, and start thinking about other changes, if necessary.

It's the only way forward (and also the only way to show you are right).

I am afraid, however, that it will be difficult to find enough witnesses (or voting power) still interested enough to approve these changes.

The problem I've had with a lot of these proposals is NOT in trying them. I'm up for trying anything new, learning from it, and moving on if we need to.

However, proposing things like counter self-voting. That is super easy to get around just by using alternate accounts.

I've seen such proposals to these issues and others for a long time. They always seem to be something easy to circumvent once you consider people having more than one account.

It’s not countering self-voting or vote trading (which is the same thing by the way). I will still do it. Most will still do it. It’s just the frequency. At 100%, these actions currently bring 6-10x returns compared to curation (either post or account curation, including autovoting). The proposal seeks to bridge the gap so behaviours will land on a new equilibrium, one that with more curation happening.

Putting it simply, getting back ~50% of votes on average is more likely to get curation going and less self-voting / vote selling because it’s already part of the 50/50 act in each vote.

Of course, many may still exercise 100% of their votes back for themselves directly or indirectly, at least the gap is only at most 2x more than anyone engaging in curation.

Shrinking the gap to 2x max between curation vs selfvoting, I’d say it’s much more reasonable, and 2x more than makes up for the benefits of actually building a social network instead of being an anti-social user on the platform.

To amplify a bit what you said...the 2x gap is much, much smaller than currently. Curation currently yields around 15% (after factoring in the typical effect of the reverse auction), meaning the ratio between self-voting and curation is about 7x. Even if the effect of the reverse auction were diminished or removed, it would still be 4x. I agree with you that is too high and even 2x may still be too high. We might need to go to a higher curation percentage which would narrow the gap further (for example, 90% curation would reduce it to about 1.1x).

However, before we go that far we should certainly try moving way from 7x first. So I agree with the 50% part of the proposal.

I've written to @dwinblood below about this, not sure if it checks out. 2x may be justifiable. I think anything more than 50% is gonna have a hard time with the author-types. 90% is leaving almost nothing for them (although I could see that it encourages way more curation than authoring, and probably closer to the spread of user types in any social content platform)

Putting it simply, getting back ~50% of votes on average is more likely to get curation going and less self-voting / vote trading because it’s already part of the 50/50 act in each vote.

Of course, many may still exercise 100% of their votes back for themselves directly or indirectly, at least the gap is only at most 2x more than anyone engaging in curation.

Shrinking the gap to 2x max between curation vs selfvoting, I’d say it’s much more reasonable, and 2x more than makes up for the benefits of actually building a social network vs a user just self-voting/vote-trading away.

edit: woops just realised this is the @dwinblood thread

more than 50% is gonna have a hard time with the author-types

Okay, "author types" are part of the community. Their opinion matters, but does that mean they have a veto?

I don't know if >50% is needed. But if it is needed to make the system work, what do we prefer? A system that doesn't work or pissing off the author types? I'll take the lesser evil if necessary,

Yes, I understand. I think your post was good and I'm willing to try it and pretty much anything. Keep what works well.

People can WHAT IF anything to death before trying it. So if people want to try new things I am certainly for it.

The average person would likely not think of alternative accounts. I don't know of many things that alternative accounts might not circumvent.

I also was talking about not being a fan of bidbots with someone a couple of days ago for many of the same reasons but I hadn't really deep dived into it at the level you did.

I self vote my post but I usually do only 1-2 posts per day. The rest I vote on other people. So I agree.

I also see and have seen these problems developing for a couple of years like you. I'd love to see it turned around. If it is not turned around I'll stick around until there is an alternative (perhaps EOS backed). Though I'll keep posting here as long as it remains functional.

I personally am not a fan of people down voting because they dislike the topic. I'd rather them ignore the post and go up vote stuff they like. It should balance out the same, and they are not restricting the interest of other people.

Downvoting is not really about disliking the topic.

I've suggested for a long time that we also have non-voting 'reactions' (like emoticons) where people can easily and concisely express an opinion (agree, disagree, etc.) separate from the reward-voting system. I understand this is part of the Steemit roadmap and is under development (I don't know at what stage).

Upvoting is really about thinking that rewarding the content brings value to Steem. It's a form of tipping where instead of tipping out of your own pocket, you get to tip out of a community pool. Downvoting is about thinking that it doesn't (or that the reward is excessive). Since the tips are being paid from a community pool, everyone gets a vote, and people need to keep each other honest by downvoting when necessary. If we don't like that, then we need to dispense with the community pool concept, people and people can tip with their own money (with no chance of being downvoted).

The two concepts are very distinct but both are necessary.

Yeah, you and I had this discussion a few times almost two years ago.

I've come to the conclusion that most of the disagreement comes from the clash between those who view voting as a shareholder would view it and those who view voting as a market.

The only minds we control are our own. So forcing our interpretation upon others as the correct way won't really ever work. There will always be contention. This is partially why I don't discuss it as much anymore as I don't really have a workable solution.

The reality it is both of those views slammed together and they may not be completely compatible. What you described DOES accurately define voting in a shareholder type of environment.

It does not describe a market.

I contend that the vast amount of people do not view using steem as a shareholder environment. Many of them may never have been on a board, been a shareholder or anything of that nature so that type of interaction is totally alien to their mind.

In a market there is no down vote. It is simply supply and demand. There is no anti-demand. I describe it like walking into a store. You go in and buy (vote) for what you want. You don't go in and say "I hate anchovies, they shouldn't be on the shelf". You ignore the anchovies and buy what you are interested in. That creates demand for your interest. Yet it does not cancel demand for other topics you are not interested in they are just much lower.

The problem with what is good for steem shareholder mentality is that it is that it enables people to pull stuff off of the shelves of the market because THEY subjectively don't think it adds value. It doesn't matter that others may think it is valuable. If power is sufficient since it is not a 1:1 voting situation it gives some the ability to be dictators and totally squash the interest of others. And that DOES happen on steem. That is not good for STEEM as far as I am concerned.

I no longer advocate for removing down voting and I haven't for a long time as it is the only way currently to combat spam, plagiarism, and abuse. Though abuse also becomes subjective.

I do believe adding the reward pool as a reason to down vote was a very bad idea. If people voted on demand then it will level itself out as it spread the actual interests across the pool. Will there be people gaming it if that were the case? Yes. Guess what? Many of the people claiming reward pool as justification for a down vote have been heavily gaming the system all along. That is going to happen.

"Code is law". No... code is what the programmer could determine how to implement. We know no solution to this at the moment that the code can fix. That doesn't mean we as a community cannot fix this. That is why it keeps coming up.

So the only thing I've been doing for awhile is trying to convince people not to down vote because they dislike someone, or disagree with what they are saying or talking about. That hurts steem. It may not hurt THEM but it hurts steem.

Thank you for the comments. I found them illuminating.

trying to convince people not to down vote because they dislike someone, or disagree with what they are saying or talking about

We do agree on this at least.

That is my biggest issue and always has been. I've seen people say they were doing it to protect the reward pool so they didn't appear to be doing it for dislike reasons then have watched them ignore or in cases up vote other content that if it were reward pool reasons they shouldn't have been up voting and potentially should have been down voting. This made me mostly view the reward pool excuse as a way to try to justify inconsistent application based upon even their own voting habits.

I've only been heavily down voted one time. That also came long after I'd mostly stopped talking about the subject. When I was talking about the subject it was always in defense of others. It was truly about trying to make steem a hospitable and inviting place.

I'd watch the conversations and see the toxic reactions people would have when their post was voted to almost nothing (sometimes was nothing) when it was not spam, it was not plagiarism, it was not abusive, and it happened to people when they were barely touching the reward pool.

Often they were pretty new. Then you can look at the people that get targeted clearly by bots designed to down vote everything they do by some powerful people and that doesn't send a positive perception about steem at all.

Do I have a solution? No.

Every solution I come up with in my head either introduces other problems, or I can easily see how to game.

That's part of the challenge of doing something no one has ever done before. It also introduces problems people haven't encountered before.

Thanks for the response. I haven't seen you write anything for awhile, but I suspect it is mainly because we are moving in different circles.

Reminds me of this article I read recently.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/29/the-financial-scandal-no-one-is-talking-about-big-four-accountancy-firms

You can't really entrust a group of individuals to guard a system when they are profiting from the brokenness of it. External market factors only temporarily mask how damaging the net behavior of all of these activities really are.

I am honestly not a fan of n > 1. I think we have already been seeing a race to the bottom with the cuts the bidbots are taking, but as they give more and more rewards to compete against each other they only become more attractive investment choices for those who delegate to them.

There is not enough combined sentiment+voting power to combat what is approaching a majority bidbot environment.

I think the major issue since the inception of steemit has been the distribution of steem caused there to be too few tastemakers, which narrowed the channel of content that was acceptable to those whose votes mattered, driving away a broader userbase whose interests fall outside of that spectrum of favored topic content creators.

This created a feedback loop of sorts wherein we have seen over time a slight distribution out towards those who write articles deemed favorable by those few individuals, they in turn continue to write what they've always been writing with an aim towards pleasing those same individuals, which is why the number of medium-sized SP holders who all write with very similar biases outnumbers those with varied interests and views.

And if steemit attracted some people over time who were interested only in investing and growing their investments, then they would naturally gravitate towards bidbots and other profit-making services, as they bought in with little to no intention of involving themselves in anything other than the money-related aspects of steemit. I think there were very few "true" idealists in crypto to begin with who found themselves on the platform, and they are outnumbered by those who have no desire to change any systems or rock and boats and are content to maximize within whatever system is available to them.

After the raid at Upbit we can see that Upbit volume of STEEM trading is already being outpaced by Huobi and even Binance, so now that we have potentially lost the Upbit frenzy upside potential I think it is due time for the markets to punish and properly price large steem holders who have been content with the status quo for too long.

Not to say that I think that it did not take some balls to hold a giant steem bag throughout the rise and fall of this past trading season, but I do think that because the rising tide lifted all ships it had lulled many into thinking that what they were doing with their SP was not that damaging to steem and steemit's future, which I think is totally wrong-minded if we look deeper at the economic realities and continued disinterest in steemit by an apathetic general public in many regions and user types.

If steemit was really doing as well as many claim it is, then, well, I don't know what to say to them, I would just ask them why aren't more people using this site recreationally from the middle band of the global income spectrum. As opposed to just being "forced" to use the platform as a means to potentially earn wages because of lack of other opportunities in their respective countries on the low end, or the idea that they can get rich if they use a stack of money to print more money on the high end.

true. unjustice. not inequality but incentives misalignment can shatter the system, or at least to immobilize it

There will probably always be "injustice" on here like in life. I don't think our incentives can ever be perfect maybe a 50/50 split would help but it might hurt.
Do you use @dustsweeper? There is a .02 payout threshold .
I Really think we should lower the threshold to .01!

injustice = measure of ubiquity of rules enforcement. privilege or oppression is not very healthy-wealthy for any society. nothing is perfect. perfection is after eternity, which is the best thing in this universe. No. I don't know how to use anything. I'm total novice. What is @dustsweeper ? What it does and how it works?

It is going to suck for the people who sign up a year or two from now especially if we have $1 million active users. Perhaps some of them might be able to earn 1 Steem that will be worth $1,000 but probably most will not. We are not in a magical perfect world so I don't see how we can design a system where a billion newbies can sign up to Steem and make decent money right off the bat.
Send your .352 SBD's to dustsweeper so I can upvote your replies. Right now if you have a post or comment that is under .02 you do not get paid anything even if it is .019 and shows as .02.
https://steemit.com/dustsweeper/@dustsweeper/dustsweeper-faq
The only downside is it is low on Steem Power so some votes are still being wasted.

I see you’ve been reading the #price chat. :)

I agree with most of this, particularly the comments about witnesses at the top. They’re a bit too comfortable collecting their witness rewards while watching this place burn to the ground...or worse - continually throwing more fuel into the fire.

Unfortunately, those approving them don’t care, so the needed fixes won’t happen. It’s not that we’re talking past each other. It’s that most people are unwilling to see and to listen. And if they aren’t just completely ignorant/oblivious, they’re just completely dishonest.

It all starts at the top, and unfortunately, we have no leaders there willing to be good examples. So, more circling the drain is in the cards. This is apparently the desire of our esteemed and extremely overpaid gatekeepers. How fortunate we are!

haha i haven't logged into steem.chat in while ever since riverhead left..

yeah now i'm seeing this as one of the bigger problems with dpos.

There is an upside to this: if the top-20 witnesses and some big wallets approve of one of the changes, we will have to take a very close look at that change. There's some predictive power there.

Other than that: fortunate indeed, my cup runneth over. Should have puked in the toilet.

what passes for curation on this platform amounts to a race to see who votes fastest. It does very little to move actual good content to greater visibility.

All too often the race to vote is being accomplished with bots and autovoting. Increasing the curation rewards increases the incentives for bot owners while taking rewards away from the content creators.

Content creators already feel largely undervalued now. Decrease what they they earn now and more good content creators will be looking for other avenues and leaving the platform to the spammers and shit posters.

You probably missed this 👇

the exponential increase would favour high SP users too much, hence the adding a cap to the modest superlinear, which means having linear rewards on the higher-end SP so that high SP users wouldn't get the disproportionate influence.

what passes for curation on this platform amounts to a race to see who votes fastest.

I'd agree with this. I'm sliding between a casual/active user and 50% of my voting power are automated, so I can imagine more being entirely automated. It's not a problem, because I'm curating trustworthy accounts that way, and have the network build from there.

It does very little to move actual good content to greater visibility.

Will have a better chance to happen under our proposal.

All too often the race to vote is being accomplished with bots and autovoting.
Again, autovoting isn't the problem. Misaligned incentives is the problem. Curation should be more incentivised.

Content creators already feel largely undervalued now. Decrease what they they earn now and more good content creators will be looking for other avenues and leaving the platform to the spammers and shit posters.

Our proposal will reduce spam and shitposters. 50% curation rewards might sound like taking away from authors, but what happens if it results in a better Steem? We definitely could use more curators than authors, which is what this proposal seeks to achieve.

Thanks for your feedback.