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RE: Are You Seeing the Truth? What Is Your Vision of Steem?

in #steem7 years ago (edited)

Repectfully, you are completely mistaken about downvoting. I understand this is not necessarily a popular point of view because downvoting can cause a lot of problems. However, ultimately downvoting is the only way to differentiate between 'good' content and 'bad' content or between value creation and value extraction, or any other distinction you want to make (and we should be well aware by now of the critical importance of making such distinctions).

Curation rewards (and increasing them) are okay, but ultimately they too can be captured, sold, and redistributed. Current bid bots just keep their curation rewards, but make curation rewards bigger and they will start sharing those back with delegators and/or customers in a new form of mediated self-voting.

Non-linear rewards similarly incentivize concentration of voting (which has at times been also identified as a villain to a healthy Steem economy), but they still can't differentiate between good concentration and bad concentration. Again, this can also be captured and redistributed. For example, most current bid bots divide their vote among all bidders. But bid bots could do something different, like only vote on the top 5 bids, ensuring higher concentration and better returns. Or impose other rules enforcing sufficient concentration. It also rather directly encourages vote trading (of the form: "We both vote for all of my posts, and in exchange we will both vote for all of your posts.") This in no way improves the content or the economy. It has some modest benefits in increasing the visibility of rewards being paid out and discouraging spam, but beyond that, not much help to the quality of content or value-creating activities.

Your comments about economic incentives and getting a better equilibrium are spot on, but the way that such an equilibrium is defined to favor a particular kind of activity is almost entirely via downvoting. Our current problems largely derive from insufficient downvoting: As you said, the dominant part of the current equilibrium is content-neutral, but again, how do you encourage an economic equilibrium that is not neutral. The only answer I see that actually does that is downvoting.

That doesn't mean there will actually be a lot of downvoting going forward (particularly after a transition period, as people figure out the 'new rules'). Downvoting is costly to at least one and arguably both sides of the deal (upvoters and downvoters) and naturally an equilibrium will tend to discourage it (just hopefully less so than now), but the resulting equilibrium will have voters who are more careful about what they vote on (doesn't that sound nicely non-neutral to you?!) because they face a real risk of downvoting if they engage in bad behavior (defined above, and by you and others very well in the past).

I know downvoting is controversial and in many ways unpopular, and that it has real costs in terms of potential for conflict, discouragement, etc. But if we want a better economy and better functioning voting system we are going to have to swallow the bitter medicine, and not by watering it down and describing what is needed as being only 'moderate' (as you unfortunately did above).

FWIW, I don't believe much non-linearity is needed, in part because downvoting already introduces non-linearity (your return is no longer linear in your stake/vote power if you face a real risk of downvoting). However, I would support some modest non-linearity at the low end as an extra step in discouraging spam.

Also, one last comment. @lukestokes is absolutely right that step one in making changes like this consists of one of two things:

  1. Convincing Steemit Inc. to change its development priorities to addressing it.
  2. Undertaking a more comprehensive effort (as @lukestokes has described in some other comments) to de-centralize the development process and control over the code base. As things stand now, witnesses only have the ability to veto hard forks that are proposed by Steemit. Witnesses can not enact any changes that are not implemented and released by Steemit, absent a more comprehensive effort to rework the development process and control over the 'official' github repo.

I fully appreciate that your post may be, in part, directed at #1, and that's perfectly fine (even something I wholeheartedly support). However, many of your comments focus on the witnesses and unless you have #2 in mind, witnesses have a very limited role to play on this.

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Witnesses can not enact any changes that are not implemented and released by Steemit.

To me this is one of the core issues that slows down innovation on Steemit.com. Two years ago it was sufficient for a witness to have knowledge about servers and how to run and maintain a node. The Witness rewards back than were a few 100 Dollars I think which covered the sever costs and a bit extra.

Today however that same model isn't sufficient anymore in my opinion. I don't want to get off topic but we can learn a lot from EOS here in a way that BlockProducers (witnesses) are expected to contribute to the development of the platform beside running a server and producing blocks.

The same requirement should be true here on Steemit and all 21 top witnesses should have the ability or hire the resources to suggest and implement improvements to the Steemit platform.

Unfortunately we can't count on Steemit.Inc to solve all issues for us, that is why the top witnesses should be empowered to make improvements them self.

The other side is to take a look at what is working. I think Utopian.io is an example of a non-profit model that could thrive on a system like this... provided it has the proper support.

Steem is a DAO, and the voting system is broken for it's intended purpose. I agree that flagging is a huge part of the equation here that is totally broken.

We should look at what other DAO's are doing in the field. How has District0x and DAOstack Aragon approach these issues? All of them have written very interesting articles about the game theory in creating token curated registries like STEEM.

Part of the problem is there is no organized way for us to talk about these things. As others have said there is a lot of shouting, but not so much getting done.

All of them have written very interesting articles

Please give me the links to the articles you believe are relevant. It is impossible to follow every single blockchain project.

Ok these are articles from projects that are just now entering mainnet. Their main difference from steem being they are platforms preparing to enable groups to set up a huge range of DAOs, including steem style registries. I think these articles are relevant and might help you in the direction you going.

On token curated registries
https://medium.com/@ilovebagels/token-curated-registries-1-0-61a232f8dac7

Grading content on a TCR with up and down votes:
https://medium.com/@sebastian.gajek/graded-token-curated-decisions-with-up-downvoting-designing-cryptoeconomic-ranking-and-2ce7c000bb51

Daostack article on decentralized governance
https://medium.com/daostack/decentralized-governance-first-principles-1fc6eaa492ed

"What community governance actually entails"
https://blog.aragon.one/aragon-will-be-community-governed-5069ed8d0a33

Thread on governance algorithms:
https://reddit.com/comments/4rtpmm

These articles are from:
Argon - their "newspaper" is here (https://monthly.aragon.one/news/aragon/)
Daostack
District0x - another project to look at

Maybe we need anonymous downvoting. Could we add ring signatures? I would down vote much more if it’s secretive. Any monero Devs around @smooth.

Unfortunately it is rather hard to do anonymous transactions in Steem because it does not use traditional transaction fees, and instead needs to charge bandwidth usage to the sender.

Kevin wants to increase incentives for downvotes.

Slightly increased downvote incentives.

Isn’t that what you want also? I’m confused about which part is completely wrong.

I've said this before in comments, but the downvoting tool is like putting a chainsaw in the hands of a 6 year old. There are simply those intent on adding no value but only reaping any rewards they can gain with the least amount of work. Some of the big downvoters run an attack business and anyone innocently in their way gets taken out with his chainsaw. I actually hate the ability to downvote because it simply gets abused by people intent on either controlling the rewards pool so there is more available for them or to just plain be vicious. Bernie Sanders comes to mind...

"Slightly"

The overall take from the post as I read it was that downvoting was a relatively minor element. In my view that is completely wrong and downvoting is in fact tthe most important element by far, perhaps the only important element.

Thanks for clarifying.

Thanks for responding @smooth. I’d like to reply similarly to what I’ve written to Luke above. Our proposal has also addressed the downvote portion like you’ve mentioned, and we’ve also considered the other modifications as preventative measures as well when it comes to flaggable activities.

However, I would support some modest non-linearity at the low end as an extra step in discouraging spam.

Yup, this is the plan. Maintain linear at the high-end.

And yes to be honest, I’ve no good idea of how things really work in a dpos setting and thought block producers are literally the ones making Steem what Steem is. I may write to Steemit, but in the end it'll still be up to the top witnesses to handle and execute the code? I may be wrong about a lot of how things work around here.

@lukestokes is the one to best address the issue of how to evolve the development process and governance (since he has probably thought about it the most and also written some about it) but as I mentioned, in practice, currently witnesses can only veto. There is movement in the direction of a more inclusive development workflow but if you want change now, lobby Steemit (the developers) and then once they release something you like, lobby witnesses to approve it (or if they release something you don't like, lobby witnesses to reject it).

Ah got it, thanks. It's been close to a year since the last HF. I thought that the 7x difference between curation and non-curation would've been causing an alarm. What has been stopping any tweaks and changes to move away from the situation? Or perhaps they're seeing value in self-voting/vote-trading that many are not seeing?? Confusing lol.

What has been stopping any tweaks and changes to move away from the situation?

It isn't a priority of Steemit Inc nor on their roadmap. Their approach is focused on SMTs and other priorities. The idea of decentralizing development so that priorities aren't solely determined by Steemit Inc absolutely has validity but is first of all a complex transition to pull of and second of all, I also see some skepticism that the system "too new" to be ready for that..I don't agree with the latter, however, I do agree with the former and because of the scale and complexity of such a transition, it will only happen if there is widespread and non-reluctant support for it

Curation rewards (and increasing them) are okay, but ultimately they too can be captured, sold, and redistributed.

What? Curation rewards depend on what you vote. If you start voting on shit content and 90%+ of the inflation goes to curation, good luck finding a way to redistribute or sell it in any viable way.
Curation is the ultimate 'proof of human' in our network. No bot will ever be able to judge a content better than a human.

Curation rewards depend on what you vote

No, it depends on whether other stake votes for it too, not what it is. It is mostly a measure of concentration.

If I agree to vote after you and you agree to vote after me we both gain curation rewards. Or if we both delegate to a bot and the bot ends up making a single very large vote then we still gain curation rewards. Again, it is all about concentration unless someone else comes along and downvotes. Downvotes are different because they don't directly gain from concentration the superlinearity as curation rewards do. You can't help yourself or agree to help (trade votes with) your friend or swarm together to increase rewards by downvoting (although I guess you could help your friend a tiny bit by downvoting other posts; this obviously is of minimal significance).

Curation is the ultimate 'proof of human' in our network. No bot will ever be able to judge a content better than a human.

That would be ideal, but without humans downvoting where does the input to say whether the curation rewards are being paid to actually 'judge' the content as opposed to just rewarding vote concentration, swarming, vote trading, concentrated stake, etc.?

Maybe just bind people to downvote then ?
Like you have 10 upvotes and one downvote daily and unless you actually do your daily downvote your voting power will sink.