Now we are selling witness votes?
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In other words, that we all knew it happened, but none of us thought it was helpful, or healthy for that matter to the integrity of this blockchain. I mean, where does that leave the idea of merit? of proof of brain? I'm seriously asking, because I'm a bit confused at the moment. I feel like I've woken up in a stranger's house right now for some reason.
Are we moving to proof of wallet, skipping go and collecting 200 anyways? Because if that's the case, I can't help but to be extremely disappointed with this. But listen, I'm not saying or imposing my will on anybody, I believe in freedom, I believe that people should do what they want, I just can't wrap my head around the logic behind the move.
Decentralization
We focus on this word a lot, as a matter of fact we use it as one of the core tenants of cryptocurrency. Just earlier today I was discussing with a friend how dapps(decentralized applications) are the future, and how embracing them will bring the next bull run.
Now if you look at it on the surface, you might miss the tenant, the advantage of the applications being decentralized. Decentralization means more or less not corruptible, do you see how the problem starts to bear it's teeth right now. If we are embracing corruptibleness (that is not even a word, but it get's my point across) then we are effectively attacking one of the pillars that give blockchain its intrinsic value.
Yes, but Freemarkets remember
Of course I do, and because I want to make sure I'm consistent, I won't argue against them. I'm not going to insult anybody, start a flagwar or nothing of the sort. Everyone is free to start whatever business idea they fancy. But, I'm hoping that if my words reach people, especially those witnesses who are struggling to make some strides to smaller digits up the ranks, I hope my words shake any ideas they might be getting about doing this.
This is like the bidbot conundrum but running on plutonium. We could effectively end up with a place were literally all sense of merit has left the building and I for one would not want any of it.
So, It's my hope people think about this, and think about this with a long term mindset, because this is exactly why we complain so much about our inefficient, somewhat useless governments. All those positions of power are bought, and they are never looking out for anyone but themselves.
Are we seriously about to copy paste this in here? Please tell me we know better....
• Forget ICOs, Dapps is where it's at
• Openmic Week 100 Top 5 and Honorable Mentions
• Just Delegated to steem-ua 2500 SP
• I'm a little obsessed with magic
• Twitter's Exodus - Mastodon to the rescue?
This is like the bidbot conundrum but running on plutonium. We could effectively end up with a place were literally all sense of merit has left the building and I for one would not want any of it.
Meno, these are the last entries in your wallet for today.
13 hours ago 0.001 SBD sent to @smartsteem ACC1535991979786
a day ago 20 STEEM sent to @smartmarket https://steemit.com/life/@meno/the-greatest-man-you-ve-never-heard-of
a day ago 2.5 SBD sent to @ocdb https://steemit.com/life/@meno/im-a-little-obsessed-with-magic-but
a day ago 20 STEEM sent to @smartmarket https://steemit.com/life/@meno/twitter-s-exodus-mastodon-to-the-rescue
a day ago 25 STEEM sent to @smartmarket https://steemit.com/steem/@meno/just-delegated-to-steem-ua-2500-sp
a day ago 5 STEEM sent to @thelittlebank New Deposit
Hypocrite and liar much?
I must have missed the logic in this reply. His use of bid bots means that he can’t have a reasoned opinion about selling witness votes? Or is it just the part about “all sense of merit” that’s the problem? Because we can pick nits when it comes to semantics.
What’s your opinion on buying/selling witness votes? I think that’s a better conversation starter here.
Well david, if i played liked some our favorite people, id have bought them and be up there, by now, don't you think? You know me pretty well, after all, I think you already knew the answer to this already, buddy. :)
"the bidbot conundrum" & “all sense of merit”
Yeah, that's pretty black and white.
I guess I wasn't too clear on my approval of free markets. So maybe that's on my communication skills there.
But listen cork I'm not interested in becoming this week's punching bag for you. So we can leave this right here.
Cheers
Skate away from the thing. It is already right here ^ for everyone to see.
Yes it is, thank you :)
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This place is a microcosm of everything that happens in the “centralized” world. No difference whatsoever, the egos are just as out of control here as in modern corporate environments.
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there are those who sit on their self appointed thrones, but regardless of intent or lack thereof, I'm not one to eat a plate served with cyanide. So I'll make noise, I may not be as relevant, my vests may not be intimidating, but I have hope reason will win in the end.
We need noisy people lots of them.
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all we need is whaleshares 😜 lol
As the owner of @Booster and @Witnessvoter I am super biased, but please do not be sad, this is actually good news for the 600 witnesses standing in line hoping to be seen by investors/dolphins/whales that already have been pitched 2000 times on how everything will be better if we vote for them.
In the @WitnessVoter experiment we will find out stuff like:
You are right, @booster pioneered the bidbot market, the real value of a vote vs the market value of the vote has been and continues to be in favor of the users more than the providers, and as @witnessvoter pioneering the witness-vote market, I believe we will see something similar, a profit/split of 20/80 in favor of the witness. So if I vote for you and you make $2000 because of it, you give me $400 in kickback, that is fair, maybe too fair even. Maybe the market values things different, but what an interesting experiment we are undertaking at the moment. Let us not be scared of a business opportunity that is attractive for investors in a volatile cryptomarket. Remember, not everyone invest in STEEM to blog, network or be part of the community. Most investors are strictly business, so by opening up doors for them to come to us and stay with us can only be good for us.
Everything must be tested and strengthen, I think this is good for STEEM overall.
This was my gut reaction too, I fought HARD to get the ~witnesses page to show ALL of us, and then ended up with the 100 wit compromise.
My very first remark was, this is not for the big guys, they won't even touch it, this is to get REAL witnesses above the frigging BoatyMcBoatWhatevers that don't do diddly shit and sit and hold spots....
Whatsup brought up some points I'm taking into consideration as well. I appreciate you responding and again, as I told Rodney(on this post too).
Who knows if good will come of this? Maybe it will.
It's a miracle that this didn't happened earlier. I've started to realize how truly dark and awful many of the things with Steemit is, so I'm not even surprised anymore. The more insight I get, the more crap I see.
I wouldn't even be that surprised if Ned started to sell votes either.
oh but listen, its a service now. I don't know if you saw it.
Oh yeah, I've seen it. Not surprised at all.
! popcorn !popcorn
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Oh lord.
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Isn't having a lot of steem kind of proof of brain?
For stupid people it is hard to earn enough steem to buy votes.
I don't know really what witnesses are so I might be way wrong here.
edit : Googled it, don't really understand still but a little. Shouldn't it solve the problem if they add a downvote button to the witness voting thing, so people can start downvoting people who gained witness status by buying votes.
to answer your first question, most definitely not... having lots of steem more often that not means you had money to begin with (of course there are exceptions) - Being an entrepreneur, creating a business model that allows you to gain a lot of STEEM would be though.
On what witnesses are, they are our block producers, but there are layers of the political kind that need to be explored for the subject to be understood.
There are writers who are probably better than myself at explaining these things, but this post here:
https://steemit.com/steem/@meno/thoughts-on-steem-s-complicated-politics-and-witnesses
Was my best attempt at describing the complicated system. Now, not the technicals of course, as these are less relevant to the populus, I'm more talking about the political aspects and how leadership gets elected.
Does proof of brain mean you are not an idiot? or that you are a real person?
I kinda semi understand what witnesses are now, thanks for the link!
It is still too complicated for me (proof of lack of brain haha >.<) to really understand all of it though.
Why don't you try running for witness? It seems like you understand it and want what is best for us (the steemit community).
If you do you can coun't on my vote (for what it is worth and if I have a vote).
Thanks for your reply.
To me proof of brain means socio-network capacity. So its not quality of content, but quality of interaction and relationship management.
But the definition itself is somewhat up to interpretation, it was probably designed this way with very little caveats.
Regarding me being a witness. I've considered it, but think that when the time is right, it might happen, however, I need to have something solid, a very solid project to even consider it seriously.
Ohh I was tottaly wrong, I thought proof of brain meant proof you had a brain haha. I get it now dumb question! I did learn soomething so I'm glad I asked. If you figure out something and decide to do it (run for witness) I wonder what your "very solid project" will be and how it will benefit us!
While I am a big critic of bidbots, I can't see much bad in this. By selling witness votes we are letting the markets find the rewards for the witness work. I would actually prefer automated solutions so that even the smallest minnow can make some money by selling their vote.
Bigger stakeholders still have an incentive to choose reliable witnesses. It works well for other crytos (waves for example) and I can't see why this would not work for steem
Seems like a better and more transparent system than these under the table deals for super lucrative witness positions.
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Whatsup also brought up the transparency aspect of it.. in that point is hard to argue against it, because it might be happening behind closed doors today. So, its a very strong point indeed.
Well proof of brain started getting talked about with SMTs, there has never been any doubt that POS (Proof of Stake) rules everything about Steem, from the bidbots to the lack of curation and even the current Witnesses.
I found the idea unsettling at first and since I don't have a witness it will not really matter to me, but I don't pretend to think it isn't already happening. I really can't see any harm.
Most of your post is about the idea of Merit, which I think is romantic but not part of the current system. I guess time will tell. I can't really imagine what will be different. A handful of people will still pick the winners and the losers. My account is 800ish in Steem Power, and I do not have any influence on the witnesses.
I hear what you are saying, but I am not sure it will change much.
I am a bit of an idealist, I must admit. But I happen to like that side of me... don't get me wrong, I realize I must land two feet on the ground eventually, but I'll try until I can't anymore.
:) I'm not arguing with you, I just think there is this idea it currently runs on merit and I think it is hysterical.
We are talking about a bunch of people using nicknames and who have no identity until recently our top witness were voting for dead witnesses and people that no one even knows to hold their own positions. We know if Jerry was buying/selling/trading votes and in the top 20. That means others in the top 20 are also involved.
Now, we are going to pretend that we think the merit system is going to be corrupted? That isn't idealism that is lying to yourself. (Said in a friendly tone without snark) :)
oh no, you are 100% right and I know you mean this with a friendly tone, I promise. I just thought we were moving away from this. Maybe, naively so, but I seriously did.
I gotta ask myself if its better to be open about it or not, it's almost as if we might live in a society were everyone smokes pot, but loves sunday morning church. (silly analogy)
I'm trying to process this, I really am.
Yeah, I had to do some sorting through this also, I get it.
In addition, it isn't that I am a fan of the idea, it is more like acceptance that we do not have enough stake-holders to create any kind of "Wisdom of the Crowd". A handful of people make most of the decisions, can control what they want and it is impacting every single part of the Steem Eco-System and stifling our growth. I don't like these facts, but it doesn't make them any less true.
I am pretty sure the witness vote buying/selling is already happening albeit behind the curtain ...
Having said that , I do like the idea that witnesses have to do more than just run a node , how many of top witnesses are doing anything more than running a node ?
that's a question worth exploring....
The blockchain moves forward every 3 seconds. I only vote for a few witnesses and that is mostly because we only have a few witnesses that stand out. The rest of them move the blocks forward every 3 seconds.
I agree it is happening.
Good News/Bad News The vast majority of us play virtually no roll in the meaningful selection of witnesses.
It's a bit in your face (with this service) and bit difficult to just roll with it...
roll
"In your face". So, it is better to pretend we aren't being influenced by stake in a proof of stake system? :) No worries, it's going to happen, there is nothing most of us can or will do about it.
I don't make the reality, I'm just saying it. :)
I just wanted to make the roll gif pun...
is all
I like anonymity in my witnesses.
The clash of realities comes from what we were sold , when joining - as to what steemit was perceived to be, and to what steemit actually is, I think.
I only joined under the (mis)conception that it was totally about writing and getting value from that...
Obviously if I had looked deeper into it at that point, I would have known differently - but that's how it has been sold to people...
It isn't being sold as anything, it doesn't have a marketing department.
I wasn't told it was all about writing, nor did I "hear" that.
I think what you mean is that is what you told or you heard. I understand that would be disappointing, but in a world where content holds nearly zero value, it is the token speculation that gives content it's value.
I understand though, I also was a little surprised when I joined for different reasons, but I guess after the initial surprise you just focus on what you can do and what you can change and leave the rest alone.
Oh, but it IS being sold as something. It's there on the front page before you log in.
The whole thing is evolving into at best a farce at worst a scam.
Therein lies the problem outlined in the post. Without the influence of the top 20, nothing changes on this platform, and the behaviour of people such as @jerrybanfield demonstrates clearly and consistently how that influence can and is being abused.
...it was being commented on as 'a forum where you can make money from writing'
(I'm talking about my own experience, reading online before I joined - wherever those posts/comments were, I don't remember.)
Looking at various comment over this last 12 months, I'm far from the only one who thought that, also..
I'm not complaining about the way it is, in the slightest, just pointing it out..
I just meant we have no control over what Jerry or others choose to say about the site.
I agree you aren't the only one, we had many people promoting it in various ways, but we have no ability to stop anyone from presenting it how they want.
I didn't fall for 'a Jerry' ! ..phew..
lmao
I'm glad that you posted this and pointed it out to us. I will absolutely be paying attention to your future posts about who is doing this.
has steemit ever been a platform of merit?
Check your trending/hot posts, most are from top accounts. it's hard to find anything inspiring. Steemit is more of an economy ran based on connect like most people will say. if it was really based on merit a lot of accounts if not be where they are today.
However, the question of what is meritable is a subjective one. what you deem good might be considered as trash by another.
many people see this platform as a business and they will capitalise on their position. It is not fair, but it is what it is. To break this chain we need more people championing the course for quality over currency.
you've spoken well.
While something being really good is subjective, spam/useless trending posts isn't. Each of us know of somebody else who deserves a lot more attention than the trending posts are given.
Of course steemit is business, but capitalizing on it for the long term and for the greater good is very difficult, even if it is the most rewarding option for everyone involved.
There aren't many others like @meno or myself (although in a lesser scale for now) simply because it takes a whole lot of effort and knowledge to get everything going in the right drection.
we just have to do the work because we are already doing the work in the sense that we are putting time and effort to create quality content, so we have to put in more effort in garnering people's support for quality. Maybe i am just the one noticing this, but steemit is becoming a mini-instagram platform where people just post random, low quality pictures and tag it as art and they get massive payout. if this continues, I fear for the future of steemit.
let's emphasise more on quality on steemit, in our serious communities. people should not milk the pool of wealth doing nothing.
If we "just do the work we are already doing", how is the quality of our content going to change this? It won't change anything, or at the very least, it won't change enough to make a difference. Championing the cause takes a lot more than that.
what I meant by 'we are doing the work alredy' is that we are already putting in effort already im producing quality content, so we might as well do more in ensuring that these contents get to the required audience.
we cannot force people not to vote or sell their votes. We can only avocate for quality and make people see reasons why doing otherwise in the long run will hurt the steemit ecosystem. we can start from our communities on discord/telegram; support good contents; support witnesses that have the same ideals and see what comes out from it.
There aren't enough well aligned witnesses we can vote for. Most of them could do so much more. While the things you mentioned are really good, it's far from enough to champion the cause. I intend to, but I still need a lot more preparation.
well, good luck with that. I hope you succeed.
Thank you, I'll do my best.
I'm watching this development closely, and I'm with you, and will vote accordingly. I sincerely hope no witness is that short-sighted to hop on board.
By the way, proxying one's vote to assist is separate from delegations, so that's going to be interesting to watch as well, as one could delegate to bid bots AND proxy votes to this shit-hole. Isn't this grand?
any witness that partakes of this loses my vote immediately, and hopefully the helpies will join me on that decision...
I'm with @stellabelle here. Buying witness votes goes against DPOS entirely, IMO.
that logic is sound to me... I don't know how it's not obvious. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm open to hearing a sound counter argument.
When / if you publish that list of witnesses, I'll make sure I remove them from my list. I've got a few people proxying into my witness votes within my local Steem community, as they aren't all that educated on what a witness does, so my responsibility in this extends out further than my own SP.
will do... np
It goes against what we would like DPOS to be and do, but isn't all this inevitable in any DPOS system without additional rules?
Just asking.
It’s completely against dpos, in fact it’s a corrupt version that will rot this blockchain
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Please write posts about which witnesses do this. I’ll remove my votes for them
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I will oust them if I see one doing it... and I will keep a hawk eye on this, I promise.